Episode 309
In this episode of UNSCRIPTED, host Sarah Nicastro sits down with Michael Potts, Executive Vice President at ACCO Engineered Systems, to explore strategic 'big bets' in talent acquisition and retention. From prioritizing cultural fit over quick hires, to embracing disruptive change and investing in emotional intelligence training, Michael shares how ACCO's $2B business is leading rather than following industry evolution. Whether you're struggling with recruitment challenges or seeking to build a more resilient service culture, this conversation offers actionable insights on creating an environment where top talent wants to stay. Tune in to discover why challenging the status quo might be your best strategy for long-term success.
What You'll Learn:
- How to prioritize cultural fit over immediate staffing needs and why running lean is sometimes better than hiring wrong
- The power of committee-style interviews and creating safe spaces for honest feedback in talent assessment
- Why disrupting rather than following is crucial for industry leadership, even when it means some attrition
- How to balance traditional "promote from within" approaches with bringing in outside perspective
- The importance of emotional intelligence (EQ) training in developing stronger leaders and teams
- Why career progression needs rethinking to match modern workforce expectations and desires
- How to maintain the human touch while embracing technological advancement and automation
- The critical balance between driving efficiency and investing in people-centric approaches to service excellence
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Watch the episode here:
Transcript:
[00:00:11] Sarah: Welcome to the UNSCRIPTED podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today, we're going to get an inside look at ACCO's strategic big bets to win the talent war. I am joined today by Michael Potts, who is the Executive Vice President at ACCO Engineered Systems. Michael, welcome to the podcast!
[00:00:35] Michael: Thank you, Sarah. Appreciate you having me on.
[00:00:39] Sarah: Yeah. I'm thrilled to have you. So, before we get into the conversation of today, just tell everyone a little bit more about yourself, your role, and ACCO's business.
[00:00:51] Michael: Okay. I've been in this industry, the HVAC construction industry, for about twenty-eight years. I'm the Executive Vice President of ACCO Engineered Systems. We have offices in eight states across the Western United States, and we're a $2B-plus company. And I have roughly 550 service vans on the on the road every day. I run the service division of our of our company. So, we're made up of service, controls, and construction.
[00:01:38] Sarah: Okay. Great. , and how long have you been with ACCO?
[00:01:44] Michael: I've been with ACCO twelve years now.
[00:01:46] Sarah: Okay. Yeah. I knew it was quite some time, but I didn't think it was the whole 28. Okay.
[00:01:53] Michael: No. No. And, interesting thing, we have we have a lot of longevity at ACCO. I'm still considered one of the new people after twelve years. And, so that that's a testament to our to our culture, I believe.
[00:02:10] Sarah: Yeah. Absolutely. So, Michael and I had a call a couple of weeks back, talking about doing this podcast together, brainstorming ideas, you know, the way that we usually do. And we landed on this talent discussion because there were a lot of paths that kept taking us back to some of the opinions you have, some of the things about the approach that ACCO is taking around this, and, you know, that ties in with culture, leadership, you know, a lot of different aspects. So, we're going to talk through some of those during our conversation today. But to start, we're talking about some of these big bets. Right? And so, I think this is great. It's a great conversation to have because what I get frustrated by seeing is organizations and leaders who are not taking big enough bets when it comes to what's going on in the talent landscape. They're either just way too complacent within the organization or they're hoping that things are going to go back to the good old days, you know, whatever it is. And so, I really enjoyed talking about some of these more strategic opinions and these big bets that that you're betting on to make progress in this area. So, one of the first that you shared with me is you said you would rather run short of optimal efficiency than hire people you know are not a good fit for the business. Can you explain can you explain this a bit?
[00:04:03] Michael: Well, I believe that an employee/company relationship is exactly that. It's a relationship. If we're accepting people into our organization that don't fit into the role and aren't going to excel in the position that we were trying to place them, they're going to fail. And as a leader in our organization, if people around me are failing, I take that personally, and that's a reflection of myself. So, I would rather run lean in in our groups, whether it's our field teams, our sales teams, or our operations teams, and wait to find the right people that are going to fit those roles than to hire people just because we need bodies. Whether it's a dispatcher or a regional vice president, it doesn't matter. I you have the wrong person in in the role, you know, you're not going to get the efficiencies that you're that you're striving for. So, being patient, being selective. I will say prior to the pandemic, we were just trying to hire bodies and get people in the door. And I feel like our business suffered a little bit because of that. And then the pandemic hit. We had to lay a lot of people off, and it got me thinking about, you know, we have to change our approach when it comes to recruiting and hiring people. Now that doesn't mean that you let your business go backwards because you're being selective. That just means be patient. There are a lot of really good people out there that will fit your needs. You just have to put in the work. You have to put in the work to find the right people.
[00:06:18] Sarah: That's what I was just going to say. You know, the call for patience is spot on, but you're not just being patient and then waiting for the right people to come to you. You're being patient and you're being proactive in how you're changing your approach to get more of those right people to you, which we're going to talk more about. So, it's both. It's being patient, but it's also being open to, okay, how do we need to change? What do we need to change? You know? What how has the dynamics changed, and how do we adjust? Right?
[00:06:56] Michael: Correct. Correct. And ACCO, we're an employee-owned company. So, I'm challenging everyone in our in our organization. We should all be recruiting, every single day. It doesn't matter where you're at in the organization. We should always be looking for that next quality person to bring into the group.
[00:07:21] Sarah: Yeah. And when we think about the service part of this conversation, you know, you were talking about this principle applies for you whether you're talking about service or sales or operations. But, I mean, really, not only service, but any role in any organization that would be customer facing. There's a real opportunity cost of just bringing in bodies, you know, in terms of how that can affect the customer experience if they're not actually the right fit and they're not invested in, you know, the brand and the experience you want to portray as an organization. Right? So, I think that's another side of it is, I think sometimes because the talent landscape is very challenging today, there can almost be this air of desperation to your point of just bringing in bodies, bringing in bodies. Right? And I can understand where that comes from, but just how you have that realization, it's kind of a Band-Aid on a bigger problem. And it's a Band-Aid on doing the work the organization needs to do to bring in more of those right people.
[00:08:47] Michael: I think it could actually be a detriment to the organization because you're diluting the product that you're putting out if you don't have the right people in the right chairs.
[00:08:58] Sarah: Mhmm. And potentially poisoning the culture. Right? If you have people that, you know, don't want to be there or don't care about the work they're doing, the people that you have that do care and do work hard. You know? It's not a good addition to the overall morale and team feel to have those types of people filling in those spots.
[00:09:35] Michael: Absolutely. And my take on hiring is, I don't want somebody to come to work for ACCO that is just looking for a job. I want somebody to come to work for ACCO that's looking for a career, and then we can help build their career. That's the focus that we're taking now, and that's kind of a departure from where we were, you know, five years ago.
[00:10:04] Sarah: Yeah. So, you know, when I asked you about some of the traits that you're looking for when you're looking for the right fit, you talked about work ethic, integrity, willingness to learn, and they all make sense. My question is, what have you found works in assessing those things when you are finding the right people? Because all of those traits make sense that you would want them, but I think they can also be hard to accurately assess. So, what have you learned in, you know, the evaluation process of how you try and get a good feel for if someone does have these traits and will ultimately be an asset to the business?
[00:10:56] Michael: Well, I believe, you know, traditionally, when we're interviewing people, we go through a list of questions. And, you know, HR provides the list of questions, and you have to you have to check all the boxes. My approach to it, and I believe most of my leadership team's approach to it is I would rather sit down with a candidate and have a conversation with them and not necessarily go through a list of questions. One of the things that we've done is, we're trying to do more, how would you phrase it, I guess, committee type interviews. So three or four ACCO leaders can get a better feel for an individual. And when we come out of those interviews, you know, everyone has a different take on what they heard. So that's been pretty successful. And having a safe place for sharing the opinions of what we've learned in the interview is paramount to success. If other leaders aren't comfortable going against mine or another leader's opinion, then it's not a good solution to finding the right people. S, that comes back to culture. My take is if a person has work ethic, integrity, willing to learn, you know, wanting growth in their career, we can teach all the technical side of the business. Those are some of the things that are hard to teach. And, if I can find somebody with those traits, it's really easy to get them to progress in their career and be a be a successful employee at ACCO.
[00:13:12] Sarah: Yeah. And, you know, even that piece in and of itself, right, it's an evolution. I mean, going back probably ten years, you didn't have to do that. You probably could find people that had these traits and had some of the technical skill you already needed them to have, and, you know, you just put them in place. And I think that's where what I mentioned earlier is, you know, some companies are having a really hard time adapting to what this looks like today because they haven't figured out, okay. Well, we just have to do more work. You know? We have to try harder to find the right fit, and then we also have to do the work to train them up on, you know, the technical aspects. But there's just no way around it. Right? It's a good point that, you know, those things are more a priority and the technical piece is more easily taught. And you can put a training program in place. You can put an apprenticeship or a mentorship in place to make sure that you feel those employees are getting to where they need to technically. It's a lot harder to instill some of these traits in into people. Right? So, it makes sense why you would be seeking those over the experience or the technical aptitude.
[00:14:35] Michael: Absolutely. You know, our customers' requirements are changing almost daily. So, it's not just the company needs different types of employees. The customers are demanding more of service companies, so the service companies have to demand something different of the employees. And technology, while it is wonderful and has helped us advance, it's also put more pressures on our employees that maybe are in the forefront of our management skill sets.
[00:15:20] Michael: So, we have to understand that, you know, with technology, our employees are behaving different because our customers are behaving different. So, the end result is the company has to behave differently. And that's kind of what we're going through right now is an evolution of how we're interacting with our employees based on what our customers' needs are.
[00:15:45] Sarah: Mhmm. What would you say are is the biggest or a couple of the biggest shifts in what the customers are expecting?
[00:15:54] Michael: In the in the HVAC service industry, ride share apps are you know, that's everyone expects it now. Home delivery companies are setting expectations for individuals which are translating into what the customer needs are. So, that's really driving our customer experience or customer's expectation of their experience. And, and then, you know, that relates back to what the employee's experience is. That's the, kind of the genesis of the customer's changes.
[00:16:41] Sarah: Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. So, we talked about how you are what you're sort of prioritizing in looking for new talent and then how you're assessing that. What are you doing to ensure that ACCO is giving these new employees an experience and a company culture that they will, you know, want to be a part of, want to apply those traits to?
[00:17:13] Michael: Well, I think it starts with the top down. It's a leadership thing. And, personally, I have to live the culture that I'm expecting from the people around me.
[00:17:30] Sarah: Mhmm.
[00:17:30] Michael: So, I think setting the example from the top down, that's how you drive the cultural changes. I spoke about a safe space for the managers to share their opinions, and I think that works throughout the whole company.
[00:17:48] Sarah: Mhmm.
[00:17:49] Michael: You know, you have to have a place where people are allowed to share their opinions with leadership, or you're not going to be able to drive that culture. So, the ability to drive conversation through the whole company, that that's our culture.
[00:18:14] Michael: Our CEO to our dispatchers, there's this ability to have conversations across the organization, so I think that really helps set the tone for a new employee coming into the organization. Peer-to-peer contact. People that are in the organization and have some longevity, know what the expectations are. If we can pair them up with a new employee, then they show them the ACCO way, if you will. So I think there's quite a few things that would set the culture and set the experience for a new employee. We're working hard on all of those things.
[00:19:07] Sarah: Yeah, that's really good. And so, the second big bet I want to talk about is, we talked about betting on change. And, you know, you saying that you have to make these strategic bets on changing the approach, changing the expectation, changing, you know, the business, whatever it is that the customers are demanding that today's landscape demands. You have to figure out how to adapt to that, but you also said that, when you're betting on change, you know that it will bring some attrition. So, in a talent landscape that is already challenging, why is it important for you to take that risk of changing things in a way that could lead to attrition?
[00:20:08] Michael: If we don't continue to change with our customers' needs…Now, we don't want to have change for change's sake.
[00:20:16] Sarah: Sure.
[00:20:16] Michael: It's really driven by customer needs, and technology plays a role into it as well. But if we don't continue to get better and improve our processes and procedures and improve the customer's experience, then we're going to be left behind because our competition's doing the same thing every single day. As an employee, a lot of times people get set in their ways, and, you know, we've always done it that way. Why can't we continue to do it that way? Well, that's not going to get us to where we need to be. So, we have to continue to change, and sometimes that does lead to heartburn for long term employees. And, you know, my expectation was x, and now we're moving in y direction. And we as leaders have to be disciplined enough to go, here's the end goal. This is what I'm trying to get to. And, you know, maybe we've lost a couple people along the way, but we have to be disciplined enough to continue to drive to that goal.
[00:21:31] Sarah: Mhmm. Yeah. Now one example you shared with me is that someone made a statement to you when ACCO was deploying IFS for service management that it would lose 50% of its technicians, and you lost two. So, I'm curious, you know, how you effectively closed the gap of risk in that example, from what that initial statement was to what the reality ended up being.
[00:22:05] Michael: Transparency and getting employee buy in. We really brought the field leadership in when we were developing the mobile piece of the IFS platform.
[00:22:20] Sarah: Mhmm.
[00:22:21] Michael: We brought them in and basically asked what their needs are and why and help us develop this tool for all of our technicians. Granted, we were much smaller then, but that it did come back to me that we're going to lose half of our technicians if we have that kind of oversight. And doing their time in a live environment, they're not going to buy into that. So, we did bring the field leadership in, said, what are the must haves for the field teams? How can you guys be involved in the development of the of the mobile? And I think that really helped stop some of the noise that was out there. You know, there's a lot of rumors when you're deploying a new software or you're providing any change in an organization. And if you can dispel those rumors by getting people involved, I think that really was the catalyst for our retention of our field teams.
[00:23:35] Sarah: Yeah. Absolutely. And, I mean, you know, the two people that that you did lose, you know, you can't not evolve as an organization just to appease people who don't want to change the way that they're working or aren't willing, you know, to change how they're working. Because, to your point, it's not change for change's sake. It's change to keep pace with what the customers need. It's change to keep pace with what the technological environment is. It's changed to keep pace with, you know, the talent landscape and needing to do things differently. Right? But I do think that's quite impressive that somebody said half, and it ended up being two. That's a pretty good success rate to go back with. So, the third big bet that I want to talk about is your commitment to drive, not follow. So, to disrupt rather than being disrupted. There's a lot of risk, but also a relative ease to following. Right? What, knowing that, what makes driving the charge worth it in your opinion?
[00:24:56] Michael: I'm really passionate about our industry. The HVAC and plumbing service space has a lot of really, really talented people in it. It's provided a very comfortable lifestyle for my family. ACCO's one of the largest mechanical contractors in the country. I believe that we owe it to our industry to drive the industry as opposed to following someone that's, you know, sixteenth of our size to drive the industry. So, I look at it as I want to do what's right for the industry. There are a lot of small businesses that are starting up every single day that that are looking for ways to grow and build their business, and I want to be the example of that across the country. You know, my goal is if ACCO does something on the West Coast, I want our East Coast competitors and peers to go, why did ACCO do that? We should look into that.
[00:26:13] Sarah: Mhmm.
[00:26:14] Michael: That's my goal, and it and it really comes from a place of giving back to our industry. But also, you know, making the industry better. That's the goal.
[00:26:27] Sarah: Yeah. I love it. One of the areas that we talked about is this idea of career longevity. So this is one that you said you're really working through knowing that things need to change but working with HR and thinking about the best ways to evolve approach. So, I mean, I know this is something that you're in the midst of, but in this area specifically, what do you think disruption could look like?
[00:27:01] Michael: Well, I believe that he next generation of employees need different things than the current generation of employees. As a company, we have to adapt to what those needs are, and, you know, that in itself could be a disruption in our in our industry. We, as a company, are looking at how we interact with people coming into the industry. How we speak to them has to be different. How we engage them, and our expectations of them has to be different. We had an employee in an interview and share their expectation of, I'm going to work for ACCO for two years. Being an employee owner doesn't really matter to me. It doesn't pay my rent today. That's a long-term play. I'm going to be at ACCO for two years. I'm going to leverage what I learned. I'm going to go to the next company and use that, learn something there, and I'm going to go to the next company. The days of employees working for one company for forty years, I believe those are gone with this next generation of people coming into our industry. So as an organization, we have to adapt to that. If we don't adapt to that, our expectations are going to be different than our employees' expectations, and that's not going to be good for either.
[00:28:48] Sarah: Yeah. I just had a conversation last week with a gentleman, Ken, who leads technical support at Makino. And we had a really interesting conversation around this point specifically because we were also talking about some of the ways the talent landscape has changed, particularly after COVID. And, you know, he was saying that they did a lot of work to, make sure that what they're paying people in all roles is fair. But he said, you know, pretty much no business can just double everyone's pay and maintain economic viability. Right? So, he said, we have to look for other needs to meet. And for them, he was saying, because the entire organization across functions really appreciates the experience that field engineers have coming up, like the customer interactions they have, the skill sets that that requires, they were very open to looking for all these ways to create these career paths, not just the traditional, you know, engineer to this, to manager, you know, but throughout the organization. So, to give people a lot of options of we're not asking you to stay in one place for five years. We're saying, you know, you come in, you do this role, and then here's all these different paths that you can take to progress in different ways, different levels, you know, etcetera. And I thought that was smart because we know that people want to see that opportunity for growth, that opportunity for progression. But I also really liked how they came together as a business to appreciate how those field engineers can fill roles in, you know, a variety of different functions, not just in the service silo, if you will.
[00:30:48] Michael: We need to look at career progression as a big priority to younger people, and I completely understand that. But that's not the only driver for young people. It's, you know, how does the company feel about the environment?
[00:31:12] Sarah: Mhmm.
[00:31:13] Michael: How do they feel about flex time, working from home?
[00:31:17] Sarah: Mhmm.
[00:31:18] Michael: You know, vacations, those kinds of things. There are a lot of factors that go into how we interact with this next generation of employees. And I again, I think if we fall back on, well, we've always done it this way, then then we're going to be suffering as an industry, not just as a company. So yeah. We have to be mindful and open to new conversations.
[00:31:50] Sarah: Absolutely. That's such a great point. Be open to it. And, also, you know, keep in mind knowledge is power. Right? Like you said, the biggest risk is that the employees want an experience that ACCO doesn't understand and isn't taking the time to get to know. If you're asking the questions, what's important to you, what matters to you, what would keep you here, it does it's there isn't a wrong answer. Right? I mean, I think sometimes people don't ask because they don't want to know, but ignorance is not bliss. Knowledge is power. If you're asking the question, that's what allows you then to come together as a leadership team and get creative and say, hey, listen, this is what we're hearing. What do we need to do to meet this need or this need? Or, you know, what can we address? How can we address it? It's just too many organizations, I think, are avoiding that conversation instead of, you know, seeking that understanding and then really figuring out, okay. Well, here's what they want and what they need. Now let's put our thinking caps on and really, you know, break the mold. You know? We're not going to go back to what we were doing before COVID. We need to create something brand new.
[00:33:06] Michael: From a leadership perspective, if you're not asking those questions and getting the answers, how are you going to set clear expectations for the people that work in your business? And if you're not setting clear expectations for the people in your business, then you're failing as a leader.
[00:33:23] Sarah: Absolutely. Yeah, it's really interesting. So, the fourth big bet that we spoke about is bringing outside leaders in. So, we talked about the fact that this is a big deal in a company that has been in business for ninety years and has traditionally promoted from within and still does. Okay? So the goal is not to move away from doing that, but talk about why you're thinking about the right balance and what the benefit is in bringing some outside talent in.
[00:34:00] Michael: Well, I'm glad that you touched on that we're not getting away from this homegrown methodology because that's been success that we've had a lot of success from that. But the experiences that you bring, that people have from other companies that you can bring into an organization that's as established as ACCO, ninety years in business. I think you bring new ideas and new ways to evolve as an organization. I mean, I've been here for twelve years, and I feel like I'm losing some of my creativity because I'm caught in this system. That I'm not challenging the status quo like I used to. So that outside influence, I think, is important to the growth of a company. So we're trying to be better at finding the right people external, through all of our organization, as well as develop people. We talked about career paths, you know, building that career path for that next leader. But the way our business is evolving, you don't always have time to wait for that evolution of the next manager, next leader, or next salesperson, or next field technician even. So you do have to you do have to look external, and it's an it's a balancing act.
[00:35:50] Sarah: Yeah. For sure. Now another area we talked about related to leadership is, you know, something that that has been coming up more in conversations, which is that, in field service historically there's been a lot of progression from field technician to supervisor to director to manager and on up. Right? And in some instances, that's great. In other instances, it's sort of a formulaic way to keep people and also reward people that are doing a good job without necessarily considering whether they would be good leaders. Right? So, you know, sometimes we're putting people in these positions without really asking them if they want to lead people, understanding if they have those people leader skills and if they would be good at that. How are you handling that at ACCO?
[00:37:01] Michael: Well, we're trying to put the people in the right seats. Right? The right people in the right seats. And from a leadership perspective, you have to lead from the right place, and you have to want to be a steward of growing the team around you. Not a lot of people have that ability to prop the people around them up. So just because in the past we said, okay, this is the career progression. Here's where you're going to go, whether it's in the field or in the office. We have to make sure people are moving their career forward for the right reasons. And, if we are moving people forward in their career that don't have that dedication and the ability to build their teams and prop the people up around them, then we're just getting managers out of people. And I'm looking for leaders in my organization. So, I think it has to come from the right place. Again, I keep going back to the safe space of accountability in our organization. And, if we have a bad leader, it comes back to the culture. Like a bad employee can wreck the culture, so can a bad leader, probably more so. What’s the saying? People don't leave companies; they leave bad managers or bad leaders. That's the, you know, that's kind of the root thought behind that concept for me.
[00:39:06] Sarah: Yeah. And you don't want to be doing all of this work to get the right people in and then have them, you know, leave because you're not also reflecting as people progress internally. Are they right for this? Is this what they really want? Etcetera. Again, it's just another way of reflecting back on what has been the historical norm or the traditional process and thinking, okay. Well, is this what's right still, and is this what's right in every situation, or do we need to think about something different? On the topic of people skills, you mentioned that ACCO encourages all of its employees to take EQ training. Can you talk a little bit about that - how it's offered, the value it brings, that sort of thing?
[00:39:59] Michael: So, in my group last year we started the EQ training. The emotional intelligence, I think is a very big part of finding the right people, having the right people in the right seats. When I started down this emotional intelligence path, my perception was I'm going to learn tools to figure out how I communicate with you better. And what I found was it's not external; it's not an opportunity to look externally and figure out how the person sitting across the desk from you is reacting. It's really your behavior and how you react to the situations around you. So that was eye opening to me. I started with our leadership team. We went through an EQ workshop. We broke off and did cohorts that would work together with a consultant for a year. And we've had a lot of success with providing those tools to individuals in our organization.
[00:41:20] Sarah: Mhmm.
[00:41:21] Michael: One of the one of the side benefits that I didn't foresee was, you know, people are going back to their work places and sharing their experience and the tools that they're learning with their peers in the organization that maybe haven't gone through the emotional intelligence workshop.
[00:41:42] Sarah: Mhmm.
[00:41:42] Michael: So now we have a demand for people wanting to go through the workshop and wanting to be in the cohorts, and I think it's really helped with how we communicate as an organization. I'm really excited to continue the process and get everybody in in our service business through the workshop and a lot of them in the cohorts because we're seeing the value. Just in the way that our employees are interacting with not only our customers, but with one another.
[00:42:21] Sarah: Yeah. Well, it's interesting some of the things that you've been saying in this conversation. You know, I can tell that certainly from a leadership team perspective, there's been some effort put into this. But I think, you know, it's just it's an area I would love to see more companies investing in and really, you know, prioritizing because of the impact it has. And to your point, it's, you know, it's clearly allowed the leadership team to communicate well with one another and create those relationships where, like you said, you can have a panel interview, and afterwards, you can come together, and you can disagree, and you can challenge each other, and you can work through it and come up with what you feel is, you know, a good outcome. Allowing employees to communicate better with one another, wonderful. Allowing employees to communicate better with your customers. And it's not only about communication. Right? That's the other thing. You're encouraging people to become more curious, right, which helps people just understand others better and understand themselves better, have more tolerance for differences of opinion, you know, all of these things. And, you know, I think when we chatted, you also mentioned it's helping people in their personal lives too. Some of the people that have gone through this, you know, they're finding themselves applying it at home. And it's impacting them even beyond the workplace and just as human beings, which I think is, again, coming back to, you know, what do employees today want? They want to be seen as people. They want to be, you know, treated and valued as human beings, not just as a line on a spreadsheet or an asset. You know? And it's just another wonderful example of how you create that culture within the organization where, you're investing in them knowing that that investment pays off within but also beyond the business. So, I think it's a really great initiative.
[00:44:32] Michael: Yeah. It definitely fills my cup when I when I go around our organization and, you know, people pull me aside and say, hey. My relationship with my spouse or my children has improved because of this workshop or the cohort that I'm going through. Those are the things that I think are the most impactful for me personally. That’s what drives me. We're actually having our next EQ workshop next week and our CEO is going to attend it with us. So, it's starting to get some legs through our organization. From that, we've actually, some of the people that have gone through the EQ workshop have now started an initiative, a mental health workshop initiative. So, we've just had our first workshop for mental health, and we're going to have a couple more this year. So, it's kind of getting some legs and expanding across our organization, which is really a positive thing, I believe.
[00:45:46] Sarah: Yeah. I agree. I wanted to ask, you know, it's impossible not to think about the ways that technology will continue to change the way we work in in all industries. And, I'm curious how you see AI and more automation playing a role in sort of addressing these talent challenges and also how ACCO will keep pursuing its drive, not follow position in the industry?
[00:46:30] Michael: You know, failure to adapt to new technologies and new needs of our customers, if you're not going to adapt to it, you're going to be left behind. So, you know, my main focus is to be the leader in our industry. We have to we have to research, we have to invest in the new technologies, but we also have to be mindful of what does that mean for our employees. So, again, like all of this, it's a balancing act of, you know, do you go and try and automate every aspect of your business? Well, what we found is, you know, there's no substitute for having a person pick up the phone and answer a question for a customer. So, while we want to be more efficient, we still have to have that personal touch. We're a very, very large service business, but I believe our customers in all of our markets feel like we're still, you know, a mom-and-pop shop, and that's what we're striving towards is that customer experience while continuing to grow and automate and be more efficient. It's just a tough balance, and we want to stay on the forefront. Partnering with companies like IFS and some of our other partners have helped us kind of stay ahead of the pack, I believe. And, you know, that's where we see it going. Yeah. The other part about it is being strategic also and looking into the future and going, hey, where are we going to be in five years? You know, AI is this big buzzword. I don't think anybody can tell us accurately where AI is going to be in five years. So, using that as kind of our barometer, you know. We're trying to plan five, ten years out, but we know that there's going to be some, disruption or some pivots that we're going to have to make along the way. We have to stay nimble enough to be able to pivot when we need to.
[00:48:57] Sarah: Mhmm. For sure. I was smiling to myself because it wasn't intentional that the EQ and the AI question were next to each other, but it does represent that balance. Right? You want to think about, great, where else do we need to automate? How else can we drive efficiency? But you know there are limits to that, and you're putting equal emphasis on how do we empower our people? How do we invest in our people? How do we make sure that, you know, they get at least equal attention. Right? And I think that's such as an important reminder. Michael, I have to say, you know, I really appreciated today's conversation and our earlier conversation. When we were brainstorming for this, there was a number of ways, in trying to understand your mindset and what we were going to talk about that I challenged you, and you took that just in stride. And I think, you know, you said something earlier. You said, when you were talking about how the leadership team has created a safe space of accountability, that terminology in and of itself is so telling because in too many organizations, accountability can feel like conflict, you know, especially when it's rooted in okay, well, we have a disagreement. You know? We sat on this panel. We interviewed this candidate. I didn't like them. You like them. To challenge each other in those ways, in all of those ways, and do so in a way that you would refer to as a safe space, I think, is very telling of your approach and the company's approach and the effort that you've put into creating the culture that you have. And I you said something to me during our prep call that I've quoted numerous times in the past couple weeks. You said, I see myself as a leader that is here to challenge the status quo. How could I possibly do that if I don't allow people to challenge me? And I just really, really liked that point. And I think, there's all of these I call them old school, which is that's not meant to represent age. It's just mentality wise. These old school leadership styles that are very authoritative, very focused on controlling things, very focused on being the smartest person in the room all the time and having all the answers. And it's, in my opinion, so outdated and also so at odds with winning the talent war, if you ask me. And I just really wanted to say, like, to talk to you and to hear your mindset and not only yours, but ACCO's, you know, culture and what you're creating was just really, really refreshing. So, I genuinely appreciate it and enjoyed having these talks.
[00:52:07] Michael: Well, thank you for that. You know, the fact that you're utilizing that and having conversations with other people about what we spoke about, that's how I give back to the industry, and that's what I'm trying to do, as a company. So, thank you for that.
[00:52:30] Sarah: Yeah. Well, keep leading the charge and I hope to have you back at some point to talk about other things in the future. And thank you for being here.
[00:52:41] Michael: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Sarah, for having me on. I appreciate it.
[00:52:44] Sarah: Absolutely. You can find more by visiting the home of the UNSCRIPTED podcast at futureoffieldservice.com. The podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. And as always, thank you for listening!