Episode 292
In this episode of the Unscripted podcast, host Sarah Nicastro welcomes Tristan Lavender, Neurodiversity Speaker, Founder and Chair of the Philips Neurodiversity Network (Employee Resource Group), Senior Content Strategist, Writer, and Editor at Philips Communications Center of Excellence, for an open and honest conversation about navigating work life with a neurodivergence and why/how companies could benefit from giving this area of diversity more thought and action.
As a neurodiversity advocate and educator, Tristan combines personal experience with over 15 years of expertise as a communicator in leading global companies like Philips, where he founded the Philips Neurodiversity Network, a global Employee Resource Group (ERG) with over 1000 members, committed to creating an environment where every mind can thrive. Tristan's mission is to build a world where every mind is empowered to succeed by educating individuals and organizations on the transformative potential of neurodiversity.
If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Also, subscribe to our newsletter right here.
Episode Highlights:
Tristan - 00:00:00:
In these 16 years that I didn't show with anyone that I was autistic, none of my managers knew per se. They may have suspected that I was autistic, but there's no way of knowing for sure. And it's also something that you can't really ask as a manager, like, hey, I suspect that you're autistic. Is that the case? That's not something you can ask as a manager. So the best you could do, I think, in general, and there are a lot of nuances to this, but in general, I would say focus on what people need. So I think that starts with onboarding, but also just in your day-to-day interactions, what can you do as a manager to empower that person to be at their best in their daily work?
Sarah - 00:00:46:
Hello, welcome to the UNSCRIPTED podcast, where you'll find discussions on what matters most in service, leadership, and business transformation. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Let's jump in. Welcome to the Unscripted podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Very excited for today's guest and the topic that we're going to be talking about. We're going to be talking about the question I think every leader should be asking themselves, which is, are you overlooking the importance and impact of neurodiversity at work? So I'm thrilled to have with us today, Tristan Lavender, who is a neurodiversity speaker. He is also the founder and chair of the Philips Neurodiversity Network, which is an employee resource group. And he is a senior content strategist, writer, and editor for the Philips Communication Center of Excellence. So Tristan, welcome to the UNSCRIPTED podcast.
Tristan - 00:01:43:
Thank you, Sarah, for having me on.
Sarah - 00:01:44:
I'm very excited for today's chat. It's been in the works for a bit. We've been exchanging messages and comparing busy calendars. And here we finally are. So I found you on LinkedIn and started following you there. And I deeply admire the insight that your content provides and also the courage and effort that it takes to speak publicly about your journey and the things that you are trying to bring light to. So that's why I'm so, so happy to have you here. So your passion from around neurodiversity and bringing awareness to this comes from your own personal experience. And I'm sure there's plenty of listeners that don't know you yet and are meeting you for the first time. So if you could just start with anything you're comfortable sharing about your own story, your own journey, and how that brought you to the work that you do.
Tristan - 00:02:38:
I'm happy to. So growing up, if we go back in time, I always felt different from other kids, but I never really understood why. So I always had a hard time interacting with other kids, even in the playground. I was always the shy kid and I often used to hide behind trees when other kids were just having a good time. But I never really understood why I had such a hard time just being like other kids. And especially later in adolescence, that really led to a lot of mental health challenges, even depression and anxiety, because I just wanted to connect with others. I wanted to be like everyone else, but I was just not quite able to connect with others. And it actually took me until the age of 23 before I discovered why I'd always been struggling, because that's when I was diagnosed with autism.
Sarah - 00:03:29:
Mm-hmm.
Tristan - 00:03:30:
And that came as a huge shock for me at the time, to be honest, because that's something that I'd never considered before. Ironically, I just graduated in psychology and I started studying the subject, but it had just never occurred to me that I could be on the autism spectrum.
Sarah - 00:03:47:
Not to interrupt, but I also, my undergrad is in psychology and I remember very early in my studies, a professor saying, if you are here because you want to figure yourself out, that's not the right reason to be here.
Tristan - 00:03:59:
Nope.
Sarah - 00:04:01:
Even when you're studying different things, you're not doing so through the lens of reflecting on yourself necessarily, and you really maybe shouldn't be. So I don't think it was a miss. It was just, yes, but I understand the shock. Okay, so.
Tristan - 00:04:16:
Exactly. So things start, the pieces of the puzzle start falling into place when I received my diagnosis. But at the same time, it is something that I also had a very hard time processing because the more I started reading about autism, the more I was confronted with what I lack as a person. Like everything I read about autism was about deficits. So for that reason, it was a huge struggle for me. And I was always quite ashamed to share with others that I'm on the autism spectrum because I was just worried what other people may think of me, especially also in a professional context. So for that reason, it actually took me more than 16 years before I finally felt comfortable sharing this with another human being at work for the very first time in my life, 16 years after the initial diagnosis. So I think that journey shows you what a struggle it can be for autistic or neurodivergent people more broadly to come to terms with who they are and then also feel comfortable sharing that aspect of their identity with others.
Sarah - 00:05:17:
Yeah, and that can be very lonely, right? That 16 years is there's a big part of yourself that you're either hiding or you're not sure how to share. And that you spoke about when you were younger, the ties to mental health, feeling that you can't be yourself or you have to hide certain things that can cause things like depression to come up because it's very isolating.
Tristan - 00:05:40:
It's also tiring. And I think maybe a lot of people in the audience will also be able to relate to this in their own ways that in a professional context, we're, of course, always adapting in a sense to what's expected of us in a certain professional role. But especially for those who are under a divergence, that pressure to adapt, to conform, to be like others tends to be even stronger, which also just is very exhausting. It takes a lot of energy to constantly trying to be someone you're not in order to fit in.
Sarah - 00:06:11:
Right.
Tristan - 00:06:12:
That also just took a lot of energy from me all those years.
Sarah - 00:06:15:
Yeah. So, we talked before we started recording that I would likely start asking questions that we didn't talk about beforehand. So two things that we haven't spoke about that I'm curious about is when you were 23 and you got that diagnosis and you were processing all of that initially, what were you doing work-wise at the time? Like what environment were you working in?
Tristan - 00:06:40:
Yeah, so I just finished university, as I mentioned, and I was still, to be honest, not sure what my career would look like. So I was in a bit of a transition period. I took on an internship as a journalist initially because I'd always loved writing. So that's something that I considered as a career. But I wasn't quite sure yet at the time. And I will also say, in all honesty, that I really hit my low point around that time in terms of mental health at one point. I even wondered if I'd be able to have a career in the first place because I was even struggling just with my day-to-day life.
Sarah - 00:07:15:
Yeah.
Tristan - 00:07:15:
Which is hard to imagine in hindsight, but that's a shine. It was really a huge burn.
Sarah - 00:07:20:
Well, and that's one of the reasons I asked, I'll ask the second question before I comment, which is the 16 years that it took between learning that about yourself or not really learning it about yourself, being able to put a label to what you had felt, right? So having a diagnosis between then and 16 years later, getting to the point of sharing that for the first time. And I guess maybe we'll get into this in our outline, but I'm curious how much of that was... Your work, your internal work, and processing that, getting more comfortable with what this means in your life, and building the confidence to be able to share that versus 16 years of what I would like to imagine as is progress of living in a world that is more accepting of differences?
Tristan - 00:08:17:
I think it's a combination of both. I think the biggest change in mindset for me has been that, as I just described, when I initially got the diagnosis, I just viewed autism through the lens of deficits. But what I've learned to appreciate over the years is that being artistic also comes with certain strengths. And these strengths are unique to each individual. But throughout my career, and I've been lucky to have had a career, I also learned that there are specific qualities, such as being highly detail-oriented, being very focused in my work, that can actually help me add a lot of value also in collaboration with others. So I've learned to view autism in a more positive light. Even though it still comes with its challenges and struggles, which I don't want to downplay in any way. So I think part of it was the mindset, but I do recognize there were also what you shared about times are changing. I think in general, there's a wider societal acceptance of mental health challenges more broadly. And I think in our diversity, even though- So exactly the same as mental health is also one of the topics that is, I think, now... Yeah, more becoming a topic of conversation, also fueled by younger generations, I think, who feel more comfortable talking about it. So that has definitely also helped to make me feel more comfortable being open about being autistic with others as well.
Sarah - 00:09:42:
Yeah, and I think I had that thought pop into my mind, like... It's hard for me not to want to put myself in the minds of what you were going through at 23 and in the 16 years until you were able to feel comfortable sharing. And there's no way for us to cover all of that. And that's not what we're here to do. But without talking about years and specific timeframes, I would guess that a large part of it was your work. Because I think we're still, this topic is still not. As widely discussed or open as it needs to be. And that's why we're having this conversation today. So if we start working back in timeframes, it's less and less so, right? And so that's just a testament to your personal perseverance. But also, I love what you said about... So I've shared here before, but not everyone listens to every podcast. I have ADHD, which I did not learn until I was in my late 30s, actually. I also have CPTSD from childhood trauma, which brings about a number of different things. And... So there's elements of what you're saying of feeling different that I can identify with and also having to compensate for those things in a professional setting, feeling like if you're not going to be understood, you have to figure out how to do all of that work inside yourself to keep pace with what is expected. But I also love the point you made about the shift in perspective. And I think an element of acceptance, right? I think you can get into a space of why am I this way? This is hard, this is lonely, etc. Those things that you probably dealt with a lot when you went through that really hard period, and I'm sure at times since. But I love your point about not focusing on the deficiencies or the negatives or the why, but instead, figuring out how to shift your focus to what are the superpowers, right? And so for you, you mentioned being very detail-oriented, having an ability to really focus. But I also just want to say it's the work you're doing to bring light to this and to take what is a personal journey that can be very hard to articulate and putting words to it in a way that helps a lot of other people understand. And that... Is something that should make 23-year-old you very proud and is having a huge impact on the world. So that is a superpower as well.
Tristan - 00:12:14:
Yeah, thank you for that. If I can add to that, I also feel it really has a responsibility to now be more open about this topic, knowing that I'm also now in a relatively privileged position in the sense I work for a big company. I've been lucky to have a career. And I know that many autistic people are unemployed. I mean, that is just a hard fact. So I think there's also a sense of privilege, which then also comes with the feeling of responsibility. I think those who are in a position to speak up about this can hopefully also help. Ultimately break down barriers for others who are still struggling today. That is what I see as my personal mission.
Sarah - 00:12:54:
Yes, and that's why I thank you to everyone that's listening and to you, Tristan, for indulging me in a bit of a personal setup. But it's also why I... From a personal perspective, wanted to have you here. Because if I have any platform that's reaching any number of people that I can help bring light to topics that I think need that attention, I also feel an obligation to do that. So... Okay. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for letting me share a bit. And let's now shift gears to the part of the conversation that is about not the personal recognition of those strengths or superpowers, but the reason it's important for businesses to understand that different neuro divergencies. Aren't just a set of potential deficiencies in the workplace. They're also a set of strengths. So can you just talk about in the work you do, the speaking you do, your public experience, your interaction with other folks, what does neurodiversity mean for businesses? And what do we need to create awareness about there from the perspective of how do leaders and companies need to be thinking about why it's important to understand this better and be more accommodating?
Tristan - 00:14:13:
That's a great question, and that's something that I'm now working daily on in my role as a leader of our neurodiversity and resource group at Philips. I think it all starts with the understanding that we are all different. No two brains are the same, as I like to say, because there can be this perception that neurodiversity is a topic that is only relevant to a specific group of people. So people like me who are autistic or people like you who have ADHD. Well, in fact, neurodiversity is a much broader concept, which recognizes that we're all wired differently and that we all have our own unique strengths and challenges at work. But it is also true, as we discussed before, that neurodivergent people, people like you and me, who have brains that are wired differently from the majority, we have often more pronounced strengths or superpowers, as you call them yourself. But also certain challenges that we may face because we differ from the majority and the environments in which we operate are often designed for the majority. So that may create barriers for us also in the workplace. So I think it is important for employers to also take that balanced perspective and recognize that neurodivergent people can add a lot of value to your organization precisely because they think differently and because they bring unique strengths that others may not be able to offer. But the other side of that is that you then, as an employer, as a business, also need to create the environment. That is able to adapt to what these individuals need in order to bring their best selves to work. So for me, it's all about taking that balanced perspective. And what we also say at Philips, we are an innovation company. Innovation is very important to us. And that is always what we also use as a frame as an employee resource group when we talk about neurodiversity. In order to innovate as a company, you need people who think differently. You need different perspectives in a team, you need that healthy friction. So neurodiversity is also, I think, really essential for any team and for any organization. I think it will also become more important as we now have the rise of AI. Like it's relatively easy to automate standard thinking.
Sarah - 00:16:27:
Yeah.
Tristan - 00:16:28:
So we're going to need more of the new and original thinking. I think a lot of neurodivergent people can't bring that strength to work. So I think it's only going to be more important that employers embrace this.
Sarah - 00:16:41:
Yeah, I love that perspective. And I think it ties back to, we've had a number of conversations on this podcast about diversity in different... Areas. And our audience specifically, when we talk about the frontline workforce, it's very male-dominated, not incredibly diverse, and companies are wanting to work on that. And when we bring it back to the value of diversity, it always comes back to diversity of thought. It's not about meeting quotas or this or that. It's about bringing in all of these different benefits that gives a company in its interaction with its customers, in its ability to innovate and bring new ideas to light, etc. And so this is just another area of that conversation that I think is maybe, just based on what I've experienced, less evolved or mature than some of the other focuses on diversity. And so, but the benefit to an organization is very much the same as what we would talk about in creating diversity in a number of other ways. So I want to go through a couple of different points here and try and just dig into some specifics that I hope might be able to help folks. I guess the first would be if someone who's listening is working in an organization where the term neurodiversity is not in any of the materials, it's not discussed, it's not part of the culture, where do you start in ensuring that the topic becomes one that the organization knows is important, but also can start discussing a bit more openly?
Tristan - 00:18:24:
Yeah, that's a great question. And if I go back in time to the moment that I started our employee resource group at Philips, roughly two years ago, now together with a group of colleagues, we were also at that stage, I think, as an organization where I could literally not find the term neurodiversity anywhere, like on our company intranet or in any way. So we also really had to start from scratch. I think what has been extremely powerful for us as an employee research group, so what I would also like to offer as a suggestion to the audience, is that one way of making this topic really relatable for people is by initially focusing on sharing personal stories, like you and I are doing in this podcast conversation as well. Because it can be a bit of an abstract. When people start reading, start listening to personal stories, they will often find that they can actually relate to some of the struggles that others may be going through, even if they don't necessarily have the same label.
Sarah - 00:19:23:
Sure.
Tristan - 00:19:23:
So just to give you a concrete example, as an autistic person, I really struggle with noise sensitivity. That is something that, for example, an introverted colleague may just as well be able to relate to for other reasons, because a lot of introverted people also prefer more quiet environments. So I think as soon as you start openly sharing these stories, then that can help people relate, can help bring the topic to life in very human and relatable ways. And I think that is especially powerful if it comes from people in leadership positions. So that has also been a focus for us with the resource group from the start. How can we get people in senior positions to share their stories? Because that is what can create the psychological safety for others in your organization to start feeling more comfortable speaking about this topic as well. I think we really need these role models in senior leadership positions to make it easier for others to start talking about this as well. That is so important because I shared in my personal story that it took me 16 years to get to the point where I felt comfortable sharing my story. There's also plenty of research which shows that my story is definitely not an exception. So there was a study conducted by Birkbeck University of London last year, for example, which showed that 65% of neurodivergent individuals and organizations do not feel comfortable sharing their neurodivergence with their manager or their co-workers because they're afraid of it. What may happen, they're afraid of stigma, of discrimination, often from their own co-workers, from their managers. So I think that shows the importance of starting migrating that psychological safety and sharing personal stories is one great way to start doing that.
Sarah - 00:21:13:
Absolutely. Yeah, I'm a big believer in the power of storytelling. And somebody has to be brave enough to start, right? But it's hard if it's not happening. Once you can see these examples that are relatable, and to your point, we've had similar conversations with... When I think about some of the conversations we've had about improving diversity around bringing more women into certain roles or into certain things, it's the same example of when you have a CEO who is a father who says, hey, I have to leave early today to go pick my kids up from school. It's a very powerful example. It means a lot, right? So those things do have an impact and are very important. I also wanted to ask you about hiring. So you mentioned that, unfortunately, there's a number of neurodivergent folks that are not employed. And I'm sure that we have to think about the fact that. This is all a continuum, right? And so there's not only, and I think that's one of the things that makes neurodiversity challenging because it's... It can be hard to really feel like you're getting your arms around it because you're talking about what could be a whole bunch of different diagnoses. But we're also saying, just like you said, it's not really about the diagnosis. It's about what it means to the individual. So just like the example you shared about noise sensitivity, noise sensitivity could be a factor for people that have a number of different diagnoses. And so it can be, I think, hard to like pin down in that way. And there may be people who do struggle to the point that having a career like you or I do is not an option, right? But then there's a whole lot of people who... It could be a great option if... They saw it as one, and if the workplace understood some of the things we're talking about. So when it comes to... Job postings and recruiting and interviewing. I know this also could be its own conversation and we don't have time to get into everything I'm sure you could share, but just anything high level for people to reflect on in our hiring practices inclusive. Are we leaving people out because we're not being aware of these things?
Tristan - 00:23:42:
Yeah, this is a great question because I think what we just discussed was about how do we break the stigma, how to get the conversation going, and how do we create awareness for the topic. But I think even though that is important for a step, it's not enough. Ultimately, it's also about building skills, building competencies. And hiring practices, I think, are an important area with that. So maybe just to give you a personal example to start answering your question. When I was younger, I applied for a role. This was in my early twenties. This was even before my diagnosis, so I wasn't even aware that I was autistic yet. I didn't make a lot of eye contacts with the recruiter in this conversation. That is something that a lot of autistic people struggle with. I still struggle with that today. Maintaining eye contact with another person is tiring for me. I've trained myself to do it when it's needed, but it doesn't come natural to me. So what happened in that job interview is that I was ultimately rejected. And one of the reasons that the recruiter gave afterwards was the lack of eye contact. And I think this is, I'm giving you this as a practical example, because even though there were other valid reasons why I may not have been the best fit for that job. I think this is an example of where a narrative version person may be judged or evaluated on a behavioral aspect that is not necessarily relevant to the job. But because there can be this unconscious expectation or bias that... If someone doesn't make eye contact in a conversation, they may be less trustworthy or less capable. That can easily lead to a candidate being rejected. So I'm giving you this as an example because we're also addressing it at this practical level, for example, at Philips, where ERG has also been hosting sessions for our recruiters, where we bring up these examples to make our recruiters more aware, of type of situation that I just mentioned.
Sarah - 00:25:42:
Yeah.
Tristan - 00:25:44:
Second example could be that a lot of neurodivergent people may experience heightened anxiety in a job interview, often because it has been such a huge struggle for them to get a job, or they may have had negative or even traumatic experiences in different aspects of their lives. So the job interview may even be a bigger deal for them than for others. And as an autistic person, for example, I naturally already struggle to respond on the spot to questions. Add that anxiety of a job interview on top of that, and that might really hamper me in my performance during a job interview. So here, for example, a very practical suggestion that we often offer, and that you also see more and more organizations now applying their hiring practices, is that they share interview questions in advance, because that allows an order of people and other candidates to come better prepared, and also to lessen the anxiety, because you take away that anxiety of, okay, what questions are they going to ask me? How do I respond in the moment? So that's another practical example, I think, where you can really change your process to lower the barrier for many neurodivergent people.
Sarah - 00:27:02:
Yeah, no, that's a really good example. And I want to also talk about being more inclusive in hiring is one thing for folks to consider. And again, there's a lot of other input and advice out there that we could get into on that topic specifically.
Tristan - 00:27:19:
No, I've had these questions to surface. So these are just two practical examples.
Sarah - 00:27:22:
Right, right, right, right.
Tristan - 00:27:23:
Many more considerations.
Sarah - 00:27:24:
Yeah, and maybe you'd be willing to come back at some point and we could talk in more detail about some of these areas. But, you know, this is the first time we're talking about this topic here. So I did want to kind of go through some of the high points, if you will. And so that doesn't lend itself to a lot of depth on everyone or we would be here for a few hours. But so what I'm also curious about are your thoughts on. Really what comes after, right? So there's a lot of different areas to this too that we could talk about just in terms of overall company culture and things like that. But I think what I really want to focus on is the relationship with a... Manager or leader and what leaders need to be thinking about or considering in their approach and their styles and what adaptations or accommodations might be helpful if they want to be more considerate and inclusive of neurodiverse teams? What are your thoughts on that?
Tristan - 00:28:28:
Yeah, I think that's another very important question because indeed you can have a very neuro-inclusive hiring process, but if you then end up working with a manager who doesn't really know how to navigate your brain and your working style, then that could still lead to a very poor working experience, for both.
Sarah - 00:28:47:
Yeah.
Tristan - 00:28:48:
So I think you already touched on an important point earlier by saying that it's not necessarily about the label or the diagnosis. It's about what people need. I think that is a really critical point because... Again, if I take myself as an example, not because I like talking about myself, but just to make it really tangible for people. In these 16 years that I didn't share with anyone that I was autistic, none of my managers knew per se. They may have suspected that I was autistic, but there's no way of knowing for sure. And it's also something that you can't really ask as a manager, like, hey, I suspect that you're autistic. Is that the case? That's not something you can ask as a manager. So the best you could do, I think, in general. And there are a lot of nuances to this, but in general, I would say focus on what people need. So I think that starts with onboarding, but also just in your day-to-day interactions. What can you do as a manager to empower that person to be at their best in their daily work? To make that a bit less abstract. What, for example, has really helped me in my career with the managers that I've had is that... I mentioned earlier that I'm not very good at responding on the spot often, especially when I'm in large groups. I really experience anxiety. Anxiety my mind needs more time to process information. So what- My current manager, for example, also does really well, is that she, always, where possible, share us. Information with me ahead of meetings, workshops, so that I can prepare at my own pace, in my own space, at my own time. That is so helpful for me. And yeah, that is an adaptation, if you will, that doesn't cost her a lot of additional time and energy. And it also ends up benefiting my colleagues who are not autistic, because in general, yeah, it's good meeting practice anyway to share an agenda rather than three weeks, that's essential. But she does really make that mindful effort also to help me in that way, which has been really helpful. But the fact that I'm autistic is not necessarily super relevant there. It's more the need, hey, I need information in advance. Do you really think things should come prepared? Someone's introverted may benefit from that as well.
Sarah - 00:31:14:
Sure.
Tristan - 00:31:16:
So just as one example of, I think, how focusing on needs can be really helpful in creating the conditions where someone can bring their strengths to work. But then also being mindful, I think, that people, neurodivergent people, may have certain areas that don't come naturally to them, where they're never going to be able to excel. And where if you expect them to be like others, that comes at a real cost. Just to give you one example, as an autistic person, I may be really tired at the end of a team day because the constant social interaction is just really draining for me. So... If I'm then expected to attend a four-hour team dinner as well, I may not be able to function the next day. I may literally need another day to recover before they can work for me again. So then also having the understanding from a manager and the flexibility to say like, hey, you're very welcome to join team dinner, but if you want to go home... Please go home because that is just who you are. That is, you need that recovery time to be at your best the next day. And that is fine.
Sarah - 00:32:25:
Or perhaps, I don't know your thoughts on this, but another option could be, depending on the environment that you're working in or what the role is, we really feel that... This team bonding is important. So would you attend and take tomorrow to recharge, right? I mean, exactly.
Tristan - 00:32:45:
So there's no fixed recipe, but it's having that open conversation.
Sarah - 00:32:49:
Yeah, and it goes back to making people feel comfortable to articulate what it is they need without fear of repercussion, whether that's discrimination or it's just being perceived in a certain way or it's not being protected to the group. The manager getting to that dinner and saying, someone saying, well, where's Tristan? He didn't want to come. Right. Instead of responding that way, being able to advocate for you in those situations in a way that helps the team understand. Right. And again, where you are in your career today and because of your effort to speak out. People know this about you now, right? Like people in Phillips, like you lead the resource group. But when we think about people who are maybe on day one of after that 16 year pause of not knowing how to say something and in a role that people don't know this, but you need leaders who can not only understand, but support and advocate for you in a way that isn't sharing too much, but like that you need people that understand and can support you not only directly, but in the team setting as well.
Tristan - 00:34:04:
Absolutely, yes.
Sarah - 00:34:05:
Yeah.
Tristan - 00:34:05:
I think the notion of viewing this also through a team lens is also important. If I can give one more practical example that we discussed in a leadership session yesterday at Phillips also is, do we keep cameras on or off during a virtual meeting? This is something that audience members also want to be able to relate to from their experience. Different people, they're also different needs and preferences. Because some people may find it tiring to be on camera all day long if they have back-to-back virtual meetings. So they may prefer to switch off their camera at a certain point, but then there may be others who really rely on the visual and the emotional cues that are visible and they may really struggle to follow a conversation or stay engaged when they do not see another person. So I think it's also worth discussing in a team context, what are each person's needs and preferences? How can we meet each other halfway where needed? And having that shared understanding is I think also really critical where managers also have an important role to play in facilitating these conversations, inviting people to share what they need to be at their best. That is, I think, also pretty critical.
Sarah - 00:35:10:
Yeah, I've never said this out loud, but I always have camera on because with ADHD, for me, if I don't, I will start multitasking and I won't be fully engaged. I won't fully listen, actively listen and retain what's said. And I know that about myself, but that's my own thing. To your point, it's about understanding each individual's needs and also figuring out where do we need to come to the middle for the benefit of one person or a couple people can't always be the one making concessions, right? In a team setting, the leader needs to be able to balance the needs of everyone. There was a video that I came across quite a while ago, and I believe it was on TikTok, and I have since deleted TikTok, and I'm not using that anymore. And I wish I could find it because it was a leader speaking about their approach to onboarding new employees. And I think there was six or so questions that they asked as they brought a new member onto their team. They were so good, but they were essentially about understanding these individual needs and preferences in a way that set the stage from the very beginning about how that leader... Could best serve them and accommodate them. It was so good. I'm going to maybe see if I can find it or something similar just to give... Because we talk about this in a lot of other contexts, too, but that one-on-one relationship with your leader is incredibly important, particularly when the organization you're a part of might not be where you would like it to be on this topic, right? So oftentimes... That positive change or that acceptance or that feeling of being accepted and belonging can start with that relationship. And ultimately, I believe those relationships can model what needs to be done by other leaders and across the business. But for leaders that want to understand this better and understand their employees better and be more accommodating, there are some really specific actions that you can take that aren't... Too much extra work that can make a tremendous difference.
Tristan - 00:37:32:
Exactly. And I know that the topic can sometimes also come with anxiety. We just understand that, from people leaders, from managers because what if I get it wrong? Especially because being neurodivergent is in many cases a medical condition, so that can also come with privacy considerations. So what if I get it wrong? But that would also encourage maybe leaders who are listening just to not be fearful of getting it wrong. And as long as you're just open, curious, willing to engage in that conversation with the person, they can also educate you on certain things that may be new to you. And you can figure things out together just in open, trusted dialogue.
Sarah - 00:38:12:
So the other thing I wanted to talk about is the work that you're doing with the Phillips Neurodiversity Network. So the employee resource group. So you founded that group, lead that group. I know we talked about the fact that it has over a thousand members and this development of community around, you know. I don't want to just say topics like this. For some people, it might be a topic. It might be something they want to understand better. They want to provide allyship around. And for some people, it's more than a topic. It's their lives, right? So can you just share a bit about your journey creating that group and the impact that building something like that can have on the employees and on the company?
Tristan - 00:38:57:
Yeah, this could be a whole conversation in itself, so I'll try to keep it short. I think in a nutshell, our purpose has always been twofold. So on the one hand, as I mentioned, when I started this together with colleagues, the topic was to never publicly discuss at all in the company. So we wanted to start by creating a safe space, a community where people can come together to start exchanging experiences, to start feeling more comfortable, to be open about their differences, whether that is because people are neurodivergent or because they may have a neurodivergent family member or relative, or they just simply want to be better allies. So we opened that up to everyone. So creating that community was a big focus, but then a second pillar of our approach has always been that we also really want to amplify the voice of our community to help inform your inclusive policies and practices. So just to give you a very practical example of that. Like in any large organization, neurodivergent people may struggle with certain aspects of office design because, for example, they may not be able to concentrate easily because of the noise or because of light sensitivity. So what we're also doing with our community is channeling that feedback on behalf of our communities, for example, colleagues in real estate or senior leaders who are able to influence office design so that we can also really make changes to the work environment that can ultimately benefit neurodivergent colleagues and often end up benefiting everyone as well. Really driving that change in the organization beyond just having the community has always been a second ambition of us as well. And I think that has worked out really well. I mean, we still have a long way to go, but I think we now have a community where people feel more comfortable having these conversations, and at least with each other, maybe not always yet with their managers, but at least with each other. And I just see a lot of interest from senior leaders, from line managers who want to learn more about this topic or really embracing that to work in collaboration with them to ultimately create these more welcoming and inclusive environments.
Sarah - 00:41:08:
Yeah. I mean, it's incredible just that it's grown to have so many people involved and to think about the impact that's having on them as individuals to feel, you know, that sense of inclusivity and acceptance that thinking back to your early feelings around this, you would have only hoped would exist, right? So that's great. But also to your point, using that as a source of education and information and to prompt action within the business of here's what this means, here's what this means people need, here's how acting upon this can help, employees be more productive, more comfortable, more satisfied in their roles. It's phenomenal work. I also wanted to ask just quickly about the work you do speaking. So we didn't talk about that or have that on the outline, but you have your quote day job at Philips on the content side. You have this role leading and running the employee resource group, but you also do public speaking on this topic as well. How did that sort of come to bear? I have to imagine it's really pushing yourself out of your comfort zone.
Tristan - 00:42:27:
Here's the funny thing, though. I really enjoy public speaking, which people often don't expect.
Sarah - 00:42:32:
Okay.
Tristan - 00:42:33:
Because it's not something that people typically associate with someone who's autistic. And I'm also very introverted. But there's this beautiful quote. And I think it is from Nietzsche, but I'm not sure. But it is sort of in the spirit of if you're clear on your why, then you will find the how. You'll make the how work. And I think that has really been my mindset in recent years. I have a very... I feel a very strong sense of purpose. And as I said earlier, I also have a sense of responsibility towards our community because of my relatively privileged position. Any way in which I can help ultimately have that positive impact on our community is something that I've been very keen to explore and embrace in the past few years. And public speaking, I think it's also a wonderful platform to reach the wider audience beyond setups, but also to learn from people's questions and their struggles and we're all figuring this out together. So I think it is also very valuable and something that I really enjoy.
Sarah - 00:43:36:
Yeah, I mean, again, it's a great way for you to get a sense of what does this look like in other companies or for other groups of employees. But then you're also able to share your personal journey, but the work you're doing with the Neurodiversity Network as a way to inspire other companies to take more action. And ultimately, this is what is helping make the experience for today's 23-year-old recently diagnosed neurodivergent. Young adult not have to maybe feel the same depths of struggle as you did. So, okay, I want to ask you a two-part question. On the outline, it was just one, but I want to change it to two, if that's okay. So the question was listed as, what's one myth or misperception around this topic that you'd like to quell? And if you're comfortable with it, because you're openly sharing, I'd like to ask that question. As I wrote it, I was thinking about neurodiversity as a topic. So that would be one, but... If you're comfortable with it, I also would like you to speak from your experience around someone who is openly has autism. So from both of those perspectives, I think it could be helpful to hear your thoughts.
Tristan - 00:44:59:
Yeah, I think a huge misconception around autism, but any kind of neurodivergence, is that once you know a label of the person, which is not all the case. Because when people hear autism, and this is human, I mean, I'm guilty of this myself as well when I hear a certain label. But when people hear autism, they may have a certain mental image of that picture with certain traits. And that may not accurately reflect every autistic individual because every autistic individual is unique. So that's also the disclaimer that I want to add to everything that I share. What I shared is my story. But another autistic person will have their own strengths, their own challenges. Some of the misconceptions that you see around autism specifically are, for example, that autistic people don't have empathy. That we're just these cold, logical creatures. And I understand where that stereotype comes from because a lot of autistic people, including myself, may struggle to express emotion in the moment. But that's not because we're not feeling emotion. That's because we struggle to express it in the moment. There may be simply also just a delay in the expression of the emotion. It may only hit me two days later what I really feel about something.
Sarah - 00:46:18:
Yeah.
Tristan - 00:46:19:
So there are a lot of complexities there that may create the impression that someone doesn't feel anything or lacks empathy, but that is actually often. Not at all the case. A lot of autistic people are actually hypersensitive also to other people's emotions. I could give you many more examples, but I think the takeaway is don't rely on the label. Just view every individual, including neurodivergent individuals, as unique human beings. Also because they're not just autistic or ADHD or dyslexic. There are so many other elements to their identity that also make who they are. And that's something for another day. But neurodiversity intersects with gender, race. There's so many different aspects. So you cannot really simplify it and say, okay, this is a typical autistic person. This is a typical person with ADHD. We're all very different.
Sarah - 00:47:16:
Yeah. It's interesting when you were saying that, I was just thinking my older son, he's nine years old. He was diagnosed with type one diabetes when he was three. And I learned, well, I mean, so much through that process. But it was said to me very early on that it's better to say he has type one diabetes than he is diabetic because it isn't who he is. It's a part of who he is, right? And again, that gets into terminology and distinction that matters to some people and not others. And going back to your point about like individuals fearing they get it wrong and therefore avoiding the topic, I would never want to say that. But I do think it's important to remember you don't know what you don't know. And everyone is a lot of characteristics and traits and things and no one label could ever accurately define a human being. So yeah, very good. So I just wanted to also ask, you have done a lot of work yourself. You also do public speaking and are able to interact with different organizations that way. Other than the example you have created yourself with Philips and the Neurodiversity Network, are there any other great examples that come to mind of good work that companies or organizations are doing around this topic that people could check out if they want to learn more?
Tristan - 00:48:41:
It's a great question. I'm not going to mention any specific companies. I do speak with a lot of my peers also at other companies, and maybe it's helpful if I sort of highlight what I see as a success factor across organizations that I speak with, and which I also recognize from my own experience at Philips, which is that I think ultimately for neurodiversity to really become embedded as part of an organizational culture, you need to have close collaboration between, on the one hand, an employee resource group, which can be a strong driving force, and I've seen that at Philips as well, but that always needs to happen in collaboration with HR and with senior leadership, because there's also a risk that, and I try to remind myself of this every day as well, that ultimately it shouldn't entirely rest on the shoulders of the ERG to become a more neurointensive organization. So you want your work to become embedded ultimately in the organization, in the culture, in the policies and practices. And for that, you need to work in collaboration with HR. You need to work in collaboration and leadership. That is very much also the mindset that we bring to our work at Philips. And that is, I think, also what I see really as a success factor in what I'm hearing from my peers at other companies, that collaboration is so essential. So that's what I just want to offer as one.
Sarah - 00:50:08:
I think that's a very good point. And I think in other areas of diversity as well, we have to remember the onus cannot be on the diverse group to do all of the education, to drive all of the change. It's not fair. But also to your point, you're only ultimately going to gain traction when it's embedded into the organization and it's a shared mission. So that's a really good point. So I want to make sure, and we can link your LinkedIn profile in the show notes, because as I mentioned in the introduction, you do a phenomenal job of sharing about so many different aspects of this topic on your page. And I've learned a lot. I know others could as well. I just also wanted to ask, other than folks having the opportunity to learn more from the writing that you're doing, are there any other resources that you would point people to who are listening to this and thinking, I need to educate myself better or I want to hear other people's stories? Are there any thought leaders, if you will, or educational resources that you would recommend?
Tristan - 00:51:16:
Yes, absolutely. So I'm from a pre-TikTok generation. So I'm not as well-versed in that domain. I focus most of my social media efforts on LinkedIn. I'm really an avid book reader, and there are two books that I would offer as reading recommendations. One is by Ed Thompson, which is called A Hidden Force, which I think offers a fantastic introduction to neurodiversity as a concept, but also from a work-related perspective. So I think it offers a great introduction to the topic, really covers on a lot of the topics that we also covered in this conversation, including hiring, onboarding, leadership, et cetera. So that's one. And the other book that I really enjoy is The Canary Code by Ludmila Praslova. You already mentioned also her name when we had a chat before we started the interview. What I also really like about her perspective is that she brings in the intersectionality elements of neurodiversity not existing in isolation, but intersectionality gender, with race, with cultural background, et cetera. And I think she does a great job of also highlighting that in a very personal way by highlighting personal stories from people from many different walks of life. So these will be two books that I would recommend as a starting point. There are many more, but these are the two that I would recommend to start with.
Sarah - 00:52:33:
I appreciate that. And I will link those as well. We did chat about Ludmila before we started recording, and I think I found her through following you. And I mentioned to you and failed to say in the introduction, she wrote an article not too long ago for Forbes about sort of some of the do's and don'ts around terminology around this. And again, she says in the conclusion of that article, it is important to remember that everyone makes missteps. Everyone can get it wrong at times, and that's okay. The expectation doesn't need to be perfection. But also for someone who is new to this topic or wants to understand better, it is a helpful article. So I will also share that as well. And Tristan, just want to say thank you so much for spending some time with me and our audience today and for sharing your journey and the work you've done to bring more awareness to this topic.
Tristan - 00:53:26:
Thank you so much, Sarah. I hope it was helpful. And the work continues.
Sarah - 00:53:30:
Absolutely. Yes, I will continue following and everyone else should as well. So thank you. You can find more by visiting the home of the UNSCRIPTED podcast at futureoffieldservice.com. The podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank you for listening.