Episode 282

In this episode of the Unscripted Podcast, host Sarah Nicastro welcomes Tim Spencer, VP for North American Operations at Interblock Gaming, to reflect on what’s changed (or not) related to leadership, technology, talent, and customer-centricity over his 35+ year career.

Tim has a wealth of experience from his roles at BUNN, Scientific Games, WMS Gaming, and as an Independent Consultant. He specializes in field and customer services, manufacturing and printing operations, sales management, and executive leadership.

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Episode Highlights:

Tim - 00:00:00: So I would say never stop learning and drawing. And then part of that learning and drawing, look for ways to innovate and then iterate. Another one that I would share, I think, is always share and grow other people. Share what you know and grow others. You can't keep it all in. It's not fair, not the right thing to do. And as we learn through our journey of life, it's up to us to help others learn and grow. So find ways to mentor and help other people be successful and grow in their lives and careers.

Sarah - 00:00:38: Welcome to the UNSCRIPTED podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today, I'm excited to welcome a friend to take a look back at a 35-plus-year career in field service. Tim Spencer is here, and we're going to talk about what has changed in his career, what hasn't, where things are headed, and a bunch of other great things. So, if you don't know Tim, Tim Spencer is currently the vice president of North American operations at Interblock Gaming. Before Interblock, he was with BUNN, Scientific Games, WMS Gaming, ACCO Brands, and Taylor. I don't know if I missed anything. If I did, you can fill everyone in. Tim and I have known each other for a number of years, and we share the same wedding anniversary. So, Tim and his wife and my husband and I were married not on the same day and year, but the same day. And coincidentally, that day often falls during the service councils annual symposium. So, Tim and I have spent an anniversary or two together instead of with our spouses when we were attending that conference. Anyway, Tim, thank you for being here. Really excited for our conversation today.

Tim - 00:02:07: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. You're kind with a 35-year career thing. It's a big plus on that 35-year.

Sarah - 00:02:14: So before we get into it all, what would you want to tell everyone about yourself?

Tim - 00:02:19: You did a great job of the introduction. You know, I started my career as what they call a manufacturing management trainee back in the day. And the objective was to just learn everything you could about manufacturing operations company. It was fun. I got to spend time in every function. Some not really very practical, but every single function of the operations. With the end goal of getting to a manufacturing leadership executive role, which I accomplished, I got to be a plant manager, and then I'm the manager of many plants. And then I had kind of the career-altering opportunity to manage kind of the business unit as a general manager. Within that business unit was a service organization. And that was my first taste of what service looks like and feels like. And I liked it. My dad was in sales all his career. I thought, man, I'm not doing that.

Sarah - 00:03:11: And he asked?

Tim - 00:03:12: No. Sounded terrible, right? To be scrounging for-

Sarah - 00:03:15: Permission.

Tim - 00:03:15: Permission and hitting codes and objectives. And as it turns out, we all end up doing that anyway. But I did enjoy the interaction with customers and the opportunity to learn about their problems and try and solve, I think that's correct. That's what I really enjoyed and kind of the back half of my career is, as we say, almost our service executive. So. it's been a fun ride and moved all over the country, spent a little time in Canada. My wife and I are on our 14th move. And it's been fun. It's been an adventure. Enjoying every minute of it.

Sarah - 00:03:44: Well, that's good that you've enjoyed every minute of it. And I think a lot of that has to do with mindset. So you took that general manager role and it had a service component. And looking back on that time, what would you say the world of service looked like then? So what I want to kind of get to are what strikes you as the biggest differences between your first introduction to the service world and today? And what are some of the constants?

Tim - 00:04:17: Good question, you know, it's interesting the most obvious one is technology you know, you always, you think about your grandparents and you go man, I wonder what changes they saw in technology over time. Well, I'm now one of those grandparents. And I can think back on a time when there was no cell phones, you're lucky if you had a pager, that was the coolest technology of the time. I was cool to finally get a pager where my babysitter could now call me, if there's a problem. I remember getting my first pc, the thing was giant, it was you know this big this took up the entire desk, and that was in 1996. I got my first pc that fit on my desk, I can remember the first handheld device, you and I shared some fun with that, back in 2005.

Sarah - 00:04:58: I'm glad you, um, remember the year. So for anyone listening that is newer to me, than my background in this space. Before I ran future field service and hosted this podcast, I was the editor-in-chief of a print publication. Which was no known as field technologies, but actually even before that, known as Integrated Solutions Magazine. And way back, we did a story on the introduction of those handheld devices into your organization. So sorry to to cut you off there, but people wondered what the heck are we talking about, I did have a life in print magazines, before this one.

Tim - 00:05:37: Back when print was all there was, right?

Sarah - 00:05:39: Yeah.

Tim - 00:05:40: You know, at the time, that was the cool thing. In fact, it made a really cool magazine article to talk about this innovative launch of a handheld device that had big real estate on the screen and where you could use it, touch technology in the field for your technicians. You know, it was recognized by Gartner Group and Aberdeen and Verizon all gave us awards for that particular innovation. Now you think, that was nothing compared to where technology is today. So that's certainly one of the biggest changes is, you know, this technology has really evolved. I can remember going to trade show events in our service space and all you would see is, you know, there'd be a lot of people like FedEx and UPS. Toshiba would be there with their hardened laptop devices. Verizon would be there. But no software providers. And now you can't find a hardware provider at these kinds of events. And they're all software providers. It's kind of as an indicator, I think, of where we are and where we're headed. Which is solutions for our space that help us work faster, smarter, easier. It's not hardening a device that we already had. It's changing the world by virtue of some software innovation or tool that makes our lives different. I think that's one of the biggest things. Some of the things that never change, I think, are kind of the way you do business. For example, one of the keys to success, customers and service base is communication. Always has been. Always will be. We won't ever change. I found that in my career that every challenge I ever had with a customer was resolved one of two ways. Either by better-understanding expectations or by better communicating. Or both. Sometimes. So if I learned what they expected and they learned what I could deliver, we aligned those expectations. Generally, we had a good relationship. If the relationship came off the rails, it was because we didn't spend the time to do that. So that's something that's forever been, I think, a secret sauce for service and has it changed.

Sarah - 00:07:38: And that relationship is absolutely paramount to what service has become, as well. Because if I can kind of just reflect on, you know, one of the biggest changes I've witnessed in my time covering this space is the shift in perception of service of companies. From an afterthought, a necessary evil, a cost center, to a potential profit center, a differentiator, part of the brand experience. And it's because of that relationship and recognizing what all that relationship can mean. And I think those relationships are what build loyalty. But also what's always interesting to me is how much shortcomings or reality or turbulence those relationships can withstand when they're solid. Right? Meaning failures or failures, or parts that you can't get, or whatever it is that is going to happen because things happen. When you've done a good job at that communication piece and you have that relationship to fall back on, it doesn't have nearly the impact as if you're treating your customers in that transactional manner, and you're not focusing on that element. So I really like that point. I think it's, like you said, it hasn't changed. It will never change. And I'm sure we'll talk about this a bit. But all of this talk of AI, I say great. To the extent it can help ease the burden of service and other professionals and allow them to do their jobs more effectively, then I'm all for it. But it's not going to replace those people. Like it's a people business. People do business with people, not robots. So relationships and communication are constant. Okay. Any other observations?

Tim - 00:09:28: And just on the communication piece, you know, the key there really is just timeliness and candor. Again, I've never had a customer, well, rarely had a customer who said, I hate the bad news you're giving me. Usually what they say is, why didn't you tell me sooner? Maybe could have reacted. We could have worked something out. We could have done something differently. Timely and honest communication, I think, is key. You mentioned something, too, that's not constant, that has changed, and that is the evolution of the role of service in companies, right? So I mentioned that I kind of cut my teeth in the manufacturing side of the business. You know, product companies for a long time made all their money on the product, skinny margins, gave away the service. And most companies now have figured out that the inverse is actually the key to success, right? Maybe even give away their razor in order to sell the razor blades. The margin opportunities in service, the opportunity to really continue with a revenue model that's repetitive, that's on the service side. So that's something that's changed a lot over the many, many years that I've been slugging away at it.

Sarah - 00:10:33: Any others that come to mind?

Tim - 00:10:35: Yeah, a lot of things have changed and stayed the same. You know, you and I talked a little bit before this, and one of the things you asked me about was leadership styles. Mm-hmm. And what you want to go there next. But I thought about this a lot, and I thought, you know what? I don't think leadership styles have changed or evolved. I thought, and I thought, and I thought, and then finally I said, well, maybe they have.

Sarah - 00:10:57: Okay. Actually. So tell me what you think.

Tim - 00:10:59: Yeah, so the things that haven't changed relative to how we got a lead, I think, are things like fairness and equity, honesty. And one I'll throw out there that many people might not agree with, but I really love, which is inclusiveness. I've never been the smartest guy in the room. I've never been the expert, but I know where to find those people, tap into their experience and knowledge, and have them be a part of the solution. Not only do I get a better solution, but I get a team that's excited to participate. So I think that leadership style never changes. What I came to think about that might be a change is the ability to kind of adapt your style from what it used to be a long time ago to what I think it ought to be now. Let me give you a couple examples. So I think it used to be, back in my early years, a very command and control kind of leadership. I remember my first executive encounter. I was a supervisor at a plant. I'm a global executive manufacturing visitor at a plant. And he said, I don't get ulcers. I give them. Wow. Okay. That's aggressive. And throughout kind of the early years of my career, I had a lot of leaders like that, right, that would say, you know, you're not mean enough. You're not tough enough. You're not kicking butts. You know, I even had one leader who told me, he says, you know, I'm going to be the happiest guy if I ever hear that Tim Spencer is walking down the halls of the office and kicking rear ends and taking names. I told him that. I said, well, that's not going to happen.

Sarah - 00:12:30: You should be waiting a long time.

Tim - 00:12:32: Because that's never been my style. And I think that finally that style has found its home, I think, in our current environment, employment environment, our work environment, our leadership environment. It's okay to have a little bit softer, gentler approach to leadership. It doesn't mean that you aren't still tough, that you don't follow guidelines, metrics, and principles to hold people accountable. But it does mean that you can. You can still find joy in the process. You can have some camaraderie and good spirit and mentorship and, you know, an approach to leadership that understands and appreciates that your people have lives. I've had a lot of leaders in the past who've said, you know, on a Friday, I need this Monday morning at 7 o'clock. And, you know, people work all weekend. It's like a way to get whatever it is to another desk at 7 o'clock , and they don't look at it until Tuesday. If we think about our employees' environment, we can adapt and change ourselves to make it a much better, sweeter work environment for them. And a place that they'll want to come back to the next day and a place they'll want to maybe work harder for. There's some recognition of the fact that they have lives. They don't need to work every weekend necessarily. You know, when they have to, they'll be willing to if we don't put unnecessary and unreasonable demands on them.

Sarah - 00:13:49: Okay, so I have a few reflections. So first of all, I love that you thought about your initial response to that prompt and thought, nothing's changed, what's she talking about? And then kind of reflected a bit. So I think after hearing everything you just said, and I was listening intently, I think your approach hasn't changed. Because you were always leading in a way where you're humble. You just said, I've never been the smartest person in the room. I'm not the expert. I am able to bring talented people together to achieve an end. There are a lot of leaders that don't have that attitude. They fancy themselves being the smartest person or the person in charge or in control, right? And just the empathy and the appreciation. The appreciation for humanity and the fact that everyone is a human being, whether you are the CEO of the company or on the janitorial staff, and everyone's life matters and everyone has lives that matter, and you have an appreciation for that. So what I see is more people taking that approach and less and less and less people of the old school, they won't give me an ulcer, I'll give them an ulcer mentality. I think it's a very, it has nothing to do with age, because you're evidence of the fact that you've held the same beliefs your entire career, right? You didn't just land here in the last five years and say, you know what? It's not that, but it is very much, I think, a dying mentality. Now, I think there's a number of factors, though, that I kind of want to touch on a bit. One is, I think, to some degree, it is who you are. To some degree, people just have personalities, they have traits, they have experiences that shape them. Some people are more apt to want to find the good in people and want to work well as a team, and others are more apt to be ego-driven and things like that, right? I do think that organizationally, particularly in service, oftentimes you have leaders that are rewarded for strong, individual contribution that are promoted and promoted and promoted. And I think while that isn't inherently bad, we have not reflected as much as we need to on whether or not they are actually capable of and interested in being leaders rather than just being managers or supervisors. The other thing, though, is I think there is an element of change that has been prompted by, I think, the way the role has evolved. So in a landscape where service is a cost center, it's an afterthought. It doesn't mean that I don't think leaders should be people-centric or focus on the humanity, but it was more of a command-and-control environment, right? It was, here's what you need to do. You need to do it efficiently. This is how you do it, period. Now we're in an environment, and we can talk next about new talent and bringing new talent into the space. We're in an environment where we want people to have more of a sense of ownership and be more empowered to kind of bring themselves to work and build those relationships, et cetera, et cetera. And you're not going to get that type of talent with a command and control style because it doesn't mesh well, right? Like you're not going to have someone come in who's creative and innovative and maybe some of the newer things people are looking for and then be micromanaged by someone, and stay around, right? That being said, I think this also, and one of the ways that I want to compliment you, and one of the things I want to point out to people is looking through this list here that I wrote of the companies that you've worked for, I don't know them all well, but I am going to guess that they are all quite balance sheet driven, and all companies are to some extent. I'm just saying, in the manufacturing space particularly, a lot are more so, right? When you get into like, well, we should treat people the way Google treat people, and I don't even know if that's a relevant example today, but you know where I'm getting at. There's these more innovative, newer startup type mentality companies where like the culture's new and everything's people-centric. Those are not the companies you've come from, but you have still found a way to strike a balance between, you know, meeting the objectives of the organization and creating an employee experience that honors people and their talents and their skills and what they want out of their careers and have allowed them to find some joy in the work that they're doing. That is no small feat, but I think people should hear that and they should understand that one, both things are possible. And two, even if we have leaders listening who are in organizations that they feel don't get it, meaning they're not focused on the way that creating a better employee experience will ultimately drive better outcomes, even if not in the next days, you can still be successful at achieving that balance. So I just wanted to point that out. I do think that there is a growing understanding among companies of that correlation, which is part of this movement. I think that like, they're very interconnected. Company cultures are improving both because the talent is demanding they do, but also because there's a better understanding that, well, geez, maybe if we just treat people well, they will do the work we want them to do, right? And that's allowing leaders to be under less pressure to where they don't have to take the same command and control approach. They can take the more empathetic approach and think about how to build teams that, you know, complement each other and work well together, et cetera, et cetera. But to me, this is one of the most interesting shifts that I've witnessed. And I think it's interesting to hear your perspective because I think largely your initial response came from the fact that you yourself, have had the same beliefs and the same mentality the whole way through. But I think there's a lot going on around that, that is evolving in a positive way.

Tim - 00:20:38: Yeah, no, I think you're right. In today's environment, things have flipped completely the opposite, right? So early in my career, tons of workers, very few jobs. Now it's tons of jobs, very few workers. And you're forced to behave a little bit differently. But even back in the time when it was easier to find workers, you still wanted to create an environment where they wanted to come to work. I'm reminded of one of the first roles I had in bona fide field service. It was we were looking at lives that our field service technicians were living. And, you know, it was a lot of road time, a lot of time in the band, a lot of fast food. In our case, a lot of hotel time, too. A lot of time away from family, very isolated. And we start thinking about, well, what can I change there? And one of the things that caused us to change was one of our technicians passed away. I mean, on the job, in a hotel, and we didn't even know where he was. And so we started to look for ways to just improve their health, if nothing else. And their overall safety. And that was back in a time when, you know, we didn't have to. But it was the right thing. Try and help them just have a better, healthier lifestyle. So we published kind of the health thought of the month, you know, to get them thinking about their health a little bit better. We sent them some things that they could do in their hotel room to exercise. Sent them some better eating ideas. Put GPS devices in the vehicles, not because we wanted to track their every move, but because we wanted to know where they were in case something happened. So we could send the rescues. But today, now I have more of a need to do the right thing. In fact, then it was the right thing. Now you need to do the right thing in order to attract the workers that you need. And if you're not thinking creatively about ways to make their work-life balance better or to appeal to whatever it is that floats their boat, someone else who's more innovative is going to get the talent. You're either going to not get enough people or you'll get the less talented. So I think innovation relative to our approach to work, our approach to our people, our approach to hiring and retention, innovation is the key. You've got to be thoughtful. You've got to think outside the box. You've got to be smarter than the other guy who's recruiting the same people. And it doesn't mean you have to do all the things that Google used to be famous for. I don't know if they still do all that stuff or not, but free meals all over the place, laundry services, and bring your dog to work or whatever. You don't have to do all that stuff, but you've got to be thoughtful about what does the employee need in their current environment and what can I do as a company leader to try and help solve for that need. The other thing that has been a bit of a realization for me, too, is the worker looks different physically, right? So back in the day, most technical service people were very blue-collar-y, mostly men. Generally, a worker with tools, mechanically oriented. You know, there's a look and a style. But the worker today looks completely different. They can be of any gender or type, any size or shape, any background. And you need to accommodate for that as well in your workforce and understand that today's worker, who's going to be really, really good, might look different than your expectations years ago.

Sarah - 00:23:45: Yeah, and probably has to, really, you know, because if you're just trying to meet the expectations of years ago, you know, there are less and less of those people around, right, that have the experience everyone was looking for, etc. Now, Tim, I do want to go back to the technology piece for a moment, okay, because, you know, we just talked about your leadership style and how maybe you were ahead of the trend in that realm. Now, I think a lot of times people might have the assumption that an older leader is not going to be innovative when it comes to keeping pace with technological change, making sure they understand the latest innovations, etc. That's something that, you know, I've heard you talk many times at conferences about and something that you've done a really good job at. So, you know, we heard you talk about your first pager, mobile phone, PC. But you didn't stop there. You just kept it moving and have kept it moving all the way along. And I know that in many of the organizations you've been with, you know, you've really not only transformed but continually transformed the operations with the use of technology. Can you just talk a little bit about what your mindset is around that? Because the tendency to resist change is human nature. We all know this. It takes intention to set that aside. And to think, okay, but what does this mean? How can we use it? And then not grow complacent in the next phase and the next phase. So, what has your mindset been around the technology piece? And do you have any advice for folks on how you've put a workflow around continual innovation when it comes to technology?

Tim - 00:25:37: I used to tell young managers that there's a difference between a manager and a leader. A manager, at least in a lousy definition of manager, a manager manages the process and doesn't change anything. They just manage the process and manage the process, manage the process, day in, day out. A leader looks for ways to change the process. And I always encourage them to be more leaders than managers. What I tried to do in my career was to always just be thinking, okay, this feels pretty good, but what am I missing? And what's next? And where's the next opportunity to change something? Because not changing is... Backward movement in life. If you're not looking to change something. You're staying put is the same as moving backwards. I didn't ever want to stay put or move backwards. So I tried to find something, always, that needed a fix. I never implemented any technology in any of my roles just for the sake of technology. I did it because I wanted to solve a business problem. I had an issue. I had to solve it. And I looked to others and experts and technology to try to figure it out. And then go grab whatever that solution was and try and implement it in my business to make it better. Then you could then innovate either on that, innovate and innovate and innovate or iterate, and or find the next business problem and go find a solution to that. And so just always being on the hunt, I guess, for the next problem to solve. Not being complacent, saying, I don't have any problems because that's stupid. I mean, everyone's got a business problem somewhere. And if they don't think they do, they have it.

Sarah - 00:27:09: They definitely do.

Tim - 00:27:11: They do and they have value.

Sarah - 00:27:12: Right.

Tim - 00:27:13: They're going to discover it eventually, or their customer will.

Sarah - 00:27:15: Yeah.

Tim - 00:27:16: Sometimes innovation can be, you know, the technology can be sexy all by itself, but and impress customers and win business. I only ever approached it from a problem-solving perspective. And then, you know, so then you might say, well, okay, I have a problem. How do I find experts to help me? So what I try to do is always be reaching out to peers wherever I could find them. I did something really crazy one time. My first time I was in the gaming industry, I reached out to every one of my competitors in my role. So service leader in each of my competitors and said, hey, I'm the service leader over here. I want to introduce myself. Are you interested at all? And check. A few of them said, oh, no way. We're competitors. We can't do that. A few of them said, yeah, that might be it. And we shared appropriate ideas with each other. Not anything that would screw up our competition with each other, but industry stuff, service stuff. And that was kind of the start for me of engaging with peers to say, here's what I'm experiencing. What are you experiencing? Do you see any cool tools? Any new innovation? And then more and more, there were other opportunities to engage with industry people, you know, at conferences or whatever. But that's how it started for me. I think as a leader, if you're not... Finding a way to reach out to other people and learn and grow by association you're missing the boat you're doing yourselves and your customers and your employees of the service if you're not finding ways to tap into the ideas and thinking of others and that's where not only ideas but connections to some of this innovative technology comes from too. They may say, I'm not using this but I heard so and so use them.

Sarah - 00:28:54: Right.

Tim - 00:28:54: Such as had great results or where.

Sarah - 00:28:57: Yeah, there's so much power in knowledge sharing. And, you know, to your point, when you reached out to those folks, you weren't sharing the blueprint for success with your competitors. It's just sharing enough that it can spark an idea or a thought that can lead to that next iteration of change and that next step forward. That's, I mean, what I've built my career off of. So I'm a firm believer in the power of that. And I was smiling because I picked up on you saying, I looked for what needed fixed next. And to me, that was very telling, even before you clarified that you were looking for the next challenge, not for the next cool thing. All too often, we see companies, you know, chase the technology and invest and invest and invest, but they're not doing the digging to figure out if they're applying it to, the biggest challenges or any challenges, right? And so I think that mentality is really important, because there's a whole lot these tools can do, especially today. I mean, it's incredible, but they all should only be used rooted in, you know, what is going to serve the business well, what challenges are your employees facing, what needs your customers have, not what's cool, what's trending, right?

Tim - 00:30:18: That's a great example, actually, of that. So think of, and I've got no criticisms of these folks, but think of your Uber experience. As a customer, do you really need to know where his little car is on the map? Or do you just need to know that he's going to be there at 2:05. You just need to know he's going to be there at

Sarah - 00:30:36: Right.

Tim - 00:30:37: And so sometimes we overshoot the target. I think the best way, if you can't find a problem on your own to go solve and figure out how to use some technology to solve the problem, go ask your customer. Say, what do you need from me in order for your business to be successful? Do you need all this cool route? You just need to know that I'm going to be there at 2:05, and have me tell you that and let you know if I'm going to be five minutes late.

Sarah - 00:31:01: Yeah.

Tim - 00:31:02: So our customers can inform where we should go hunt if we, back to what you said, have the relationships in order to be able to ask them those questions.

Sarah - 00:31:10: For sure.

Tim - 00:31:11: When I was very young in my career, I was still stuck in manufacturing. President of our company said, you know, as a manufacturing leader, you need to understand the customer. We're going to stick in sales for two years, go over to Houston, Texas, be a sales leader, and then come back into manufacturing when you've learned and understood the sales process. And I go, oh man. So first sales call ever, I go to the customer and the customer says, oh boy, another new guy. What are you going to do for me? I said, well, I don't know. What do you need? And he said, you know what? No salesperson's ever asked me that. No one's ever asked me what I needed. They always said, here's what I'm selling. And that was something I've incorporated in the whole rest of my life since then, is to ask my customers, what do you need? What do you need me to do? How can I help you grow your business? How can I change to help you be better? And that fuels then the search for the technology solution or whatever, or process change or whatever.

Sarah - 00:32:06: Yeah. And it's amazing that that's the first time they'd heard that question. But okay. So before we wrap up the technology piece, we just talked about not chasing the cool, shiny thing. But I do have to ask, I was just at Field Service East a few weeks ago, and I think every session was AI, AI, AI, AI. How do you feel about that?

Tim - 00:32:28: I don't know if everyone will agree with how I feel about it, but I'll tell you my thoughts.

Sarah - 00:32:32: Okay.

Tim - 00:32:32: So I think that as service leaders, we don't have to worry about AI. And here's why I think we don't. I think all the solution providers are going to worry about AI, so I don't have to. I think the day will come that it's going to be so ubiquitous, that it's going to be buried and hidden and part of the solution in every solution we ever touch. And it'll just be in there. I don't know, I can't think of a good example, but it'll just be part of the solution. I guess an operating system is part of a computer, right? Nobody, it might be an Apple fan or a Windows fan, but nobody really cares once you've bought it how it all works. It's just in there and it makes it work. I think AI is going to be the same way. I think the innovators and technology solution providers and all those people are going to innovate in such a way that it just becomes a part of their solution, part of our lives. And as practitioners of the business, we don't really have to worry about it unless what we build and sell needs an AI feature to our customers. But as users of the technology, I think this is going to get incorporated and I have to worry about it. That may be a really stupid view, but that's my view.

Sarah - 00:33:42: I don't disagree that that is where we'll head. I think it's interesting, you know, we've talked a little bit about some of the evolution that we've both seen, right? So I think about, you know, I don't want to name names because if they are still around and I'm saying they're irrelevant, then that would not be nice. But, you know, we talked about a lot of the big handhelds, right? And I did magazine articles on that technology and I knew the vendors and, you know, the human beings that work at those companies. But, you know, when the iPhone came out and the iPad, I mean, they were largely displaced because it became very difficult to argue the need for that level of durability unless you were in some specific industries. But then, you know, as the software evolution started, it initially was a lot of point-specific solutions that companies would have to piece together to create a overall service management solution that met its needs. Until those software providers started to make those offerings more sophisticated, where then you could get what you needed in that platform. And I think that right now, because this focus on AI and particularly Gen AI is new, you know, you have people coming to market with, we have this AI solution, we have this AI solution, we have this AI solution. But, I mean, bolting things together has its own risk and cost, et cetera. I think that, to the degree the core systems vendors that whatever company works with are innovating around AI, then I agree with your mentality that you're a lot better off getting up to speed on what does the innovation within your core solution providers look like? What's the roadmap? When's it coming? What are the use cases? And going back to your point, figuring out if there are gaps that it doesn't fill, because chances are it will. So I get that. And I think that... The biggest value in AI is to increase the level of intelligence in a lot of the digital transformation and automation companies have already put in place, right? It's really just amping it up versus starting over. Okay, Tim, so if you were to share your top three lessons learned that you think, I'm going to say either an up-and-coming service leader could benefit from hearing or someone who maybe isn't new to the space but is very beholden to the status quo, because that also can be a real thing. What lessons, what advice would you share?

Tim - 00:36:24: I think the first thing I would say is you can never stop learning and growing. So no matter where you are in your career, you might think, well, you know, this is my last job. It's the sunset of my career. I'm going to retire in X number of years. This is it for me. That's still not the time when you can stop.

Sarah - 00:36:41: And then you might come back.

Tim - 00:36:42: Yes.

Sarah - 00:36:43: And so, you can't assume it's ever really over, you know.

Tim - 00:36:49: Like somebody we know who retired.

Sarah - 00:36:50: Right, right.

Tim - 00:36:51: Yeah, that would be really great. But, yeah, I think that's key, right? And I met a fellow the other day. He showed up for a job interview. And I thought, well, this is an interesting guy. You know, you can't ask how old they are, but clearly he was in his mid-70s. Brilliant man. And had a master's degree, had two master's degrees and a PhD. And then retired for a while. But had still been studying things and came to the interview with all this information of his recent studies, queries and things. So clearly a very hungry learner. I thought, this is cool. And there was value that he can bring to me by virtue of the fact that he had continued learning and growing, even though he'd been out of pocket for a while. So I would say never stop learning and growing. And then as part of that learning and growing, look for ways to innovate and then iterate. Another one that I would share, I think, is just always share and grow other people. Share what you know and grow others. You can't keep it all in. It's not fair. Not the right thing to do. And as we learn to our journey of life, it's up to us to help others learn and grow in their journey. So find ways to mentor and help other people be successful and grow in their lives and careers. That's what I love about sometimes we get to rub shoulders in industry events. Sometimes you meet people who are very early in their career and are hungry for information and knowledge, and I'm happy to share it. So I think always share and grow others because it'll circle back. It's a forward kind of thing, particularly if you're someone crazy like me and you go retire and then go somewhere else. You might now find people who want to come where you are, who have been part of that learning, growing, and sharing experience before and want to be a part of it again. And the world's a small place. The industry is a small place. Those people might circle back. And then the last one that I would share is, you know, you and I talked about it a little bit, but I'm convinced after 35-plus years, more like 40-plus years, that a kind leader can and will prosper. And so don't think that you can't be a kind and caring leader. Don't think that you have to be the, you know, the guy that's kicking rear ends down the hallway. I know a good friend who wrote a book and is now retired. His book is called Joyous Leadership. And I think there's two messages there. One is that we need to find joy in our leadership. Other people need to find joy in our leadership, and have it not be a burden to work for us. And there's ways to do that and still accomplish the mission of the job, right? So that would be my two cents, is that I wish that some of the people 40 years ago who were telling me that my leadership style wasn't going to work were here now and I could say, aha, it worked okay.

Sarah - 00:39:38: Look. Yeah, absolutely. They're all very wise words. And I am deeply, deeply honored to have been able to have you on and have this conversation.

Tim - 00:39:50: Thank you, Sarah, for what you do for the industry to help promote these kinds of thoughts and be a thought provoker.

Sarah - 00:39:57: Yes, it's a pleasure, honestly. It's my way of continuing to learn and get different perspectives, which, you know, makes it a joy for me. But I think there's, you know, so much for others to gain from these conversations. And just how you said, you know, back before there were so many opportunities for engagement at events and things like that, how much you got out of just talking to your peers. You know, I mean, there's a lot of value in it. There's the commiseration and the sense of community and realizing, and I hear this every event we do in person, I have someone say, I didn't realize I wasn't so alone in the challenges that we have. And I always feel like that's the best feedback because people do get caught in their day-to-day and you can question, you know, are we doing something wrong? Are we behind? Are we this? You know, and then when you come together, you kind of get that relief of, okay, no, no one has it all figured out. We're all in it together and we're doing just fine. And I think that's, it's great. Well, thank you very, very much for coming on. I really appreciate the time.

Tim - 00:41:04: You bet. My pleasure.

Sarah - 00:41:05: You can find more by visiting the home of the UNSCRIPTED podcast at futureoffieldservice.com. The podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank you for listening.