Episode 275

In this episode of the Unscripted podcast, host Sarah Nicastro talks with Clinten van der Merwe, SVP and Head of Global Service and Project Management at TOMRA Recycling, about moving away from the “aftermarket as an afterthought” mentality, his North Star process, and the importance of storytelling in creative influence. This session was recorded at Future of Field Service Live in Cologne.

Clinten is a well-established Senior Service Management and Leadership Professional with vast global experience leading significant business transformation and optimization initiatives. He excels in addressing complex business challenges and implementing process and cultural changes to enhance organizational effectiveness. Throughout his career, Clinten has contributed to companies like Rapiscan Systems, Alubat Middle East, Multi Glass and Mirror, and Glass South Africa.

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Full Show Notes

Clinten: If you are frustrated with things quickly, you should not be in service. That's my advice. We are in service because we have a lot of resilience. Even if it is whatever happens in the organization, you need to stay cool, calm, relaxed, and make sure that things happen. If you're unable to do that, like I said, then I would go back being a bookkeeper or an accounting department. I think this is one of the key learnings for me. And on top of this is, yes, there are frustrating days when things don't go according to plan. Yes, there are frustrations in terms of some decisions that have been made that you haven't. But you need to adapt to it. You need to maybe just give that some thought.

Sarah: Hello, welcome to the UNSCRIPTED Podcast, where you'll find discussions on what matters most in service, leadership, and business transformation. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Let's jump in. So before we get into it, I know we did our brief introductions, but tell everyone a little bit more about yourself, the business, whatever you want to share.

Clinten: Just easy to understand. I'm Clinten. I'm South African, and it's not a Dutch surname, it's an Afrikaans surname. So born in South Africa, grew up educated. Straight after school, I thought the best career for me would be in accounting. So I started accounting and then found out it's pretty boring and then started looking and then obviously entering the service industry. Worked in various industries from auto glass right through to building glass applications, architectural, then in aerospace, where I worked for quite a number of years in aerospace and defense industry. And back in 2016, moving up to Germany, where I currently reside with my family and now working for TOMRA. Joined TOMRA Recycling just a little bit two years ago. Very exciting industry to be in. TOMRA is a Norwegian company, provide different types of applications. It's on a collection side, for the ones of you that live in Germany or Netherlands, when you take your fund back to the shopping centers, those machines are coming from our collection division. We are on the recycling side. We actually provide sensor-based NIR technology type equipment that waste management companies use to sort different types of plastics, paper, which is quite trendy at the moment, especially from sustainability point of view. But also a very fast-growing type of industry that we see, especially due to regulate changes and sustainability is a major priority for a lot of corporations at the current moment.

Sarah: Okay. Just to frame our conversation for today, we spoke this morning about the move to outcomes-based service. You and I talked about the concept of aftermarket as an afterthought. That tends to be true in a lot of organizations where they still use that terminology of aftermarket service. A lot of times, aftermarket and afterthought can be synonyms. And for TOMRA, where are you at in that journey? And how are you thinking about, as a business, how are you viewing and thinking about service?

Clinten: Maybe I'll go back. I think a lot of us know in the 90s, they actually said, there's no place for field service going forward. Just due to the fact that people will manufacture stuff, they'll throw it away, buy a new one, manufacture, throw away. Guess what? It's actually been completely the opposite. And I think that's what's making it exciting. Although a lot of companies are still stuck in that traditional way of thinking. The mindset is still traditional, the culture is still set up in such a way that it's not really driving that change. We're still looking at processes that are still designed for just call Mr. Or Mrs. Fix-It, I'll go fix it, and everything goes well. When I joined TOMRA, because of the growth of the industry, I remember my EVP said to me during the, because I asked him, where do you want me to focus on first? And the first focus was catching up because the market was growing so fast. It was selling so many units and service took too long to actually transform. When I started, the first thing I started doing was looking at our organization and looking at how do we actually get a compelling vision and mission that we can design within the organization that looks sexy, that looks accommodating, that we can bring service more to the forefront. I got my team together. Some of my team members are here today as well. Got the team together and we started hammering it out. What does a mission look like? What does our customers want? What does the organization want? How do we embed everything within our DNA? Like, how do we do this? And this is why we started then with our mission, which is really a good tool for you to use as well internally and driving that mindset change of it's not aftermarket, afterthought. Service should be on the forefront of driving everything because we are involved in every facet of a business, although we are very complex. So if you speak to a CEO or CFO, they don't want to understand because it's too complex. So how do we actually change that mindset of making it a little bit more in bite-size? Not be too detailed or in the weeds, daily weeds, but really taking that back to your organization and then sharing that and also sharing the good news of what service really means.

Sarah: Yeah. And I think part of that complexity that people don't necessarily want to understand is that it's intangible. It's a lot easier to understand the products, the line items. It's a lot harder to understand the intangible value of service and everything that can represent. When you came in and you started trying to set the strategic vision, what were the biggest hurdles you faced when it comes to the legacy mentality or culture?

Clinten: Changing that mindset, I think, was in some cases a culture shock for different parts of the organization. What is really nice about service, and I think you all can resonate very well on that, is the fact that we are quite resilient and we're quite adaptable to change. Service is the easy one to convince. The most more difficult is that's upper-level management, your sales teams, your operation teams, your R&D teams, because there comes the tricky part. And you're 100% right. It is a complex organization. But if I look at 2019 BC, before Corona, companies didn't really think of service in such a way as a real revenue driver and as the unique selling point for your products. And when COVID happened, actually, companies then started switching around. And I know one of the companies before this total service revenue was only 30% of their total annual revenue. When COVID hit, it became 55% of annual revenue. Suddenly, the CEO started now understanding what service means and why service is very important, especially for a sustainable business platform. And I think this is really the tricky point. For me, it was more of how do we design that strategy? How do we break it down, you said, in smaller pieces that is understandable for the organization? Because if you come up with a big area, you are going to lose your audience. This is where we looked at, this is our strategy that we want to achieve over five years. And I'll get to my 10-year aspirations. And how did we break that down to come into what is our strategic priorities for this year? Small five, maximum five strategic priorities, which each of my direct report owns. And I have cross-functional support to drive that. And through that, we actually have a win situation. And we tick the box. Great. This is now in. We fixed the baseline in certain areas. Now we can grow and develop. Next year, we get together. We start doing the next strategic for that next second year to build further. And I think this is really important. Don't be too far. Otherwise, you lose the audience.

Sarah: Yeah. When we chatted, Clinten. you said when it comes to setting strategy, you want to think about what is aggressive, but attainable, inspiring, but relatable. Can you talk a little bit about looking at your remit through that frame and any advice you have on what strategy setting works that meets those criteria? Like, how do you achieve those objectives when you're laying something out? Obviously, you're talking about one year at a time, five things max. Any other advice for making it? Aggressive, but attainable, inspiring, but relatable.

Clinten: Again, a lot of the information that we get from customers are filtering through from our service organizations. A field service engineer sees a customer seven times more than a salesperson in a year timeframe. It's a known fact. And this information needs to come back to the organization. You need that information to build that strategy on where the areas are. Also need to fully understand where are your weaknesses. And weaknesses is a fantastic thing. I think in a previous service event, somebody brought up that, how will you improve if you don't know where you are going wrong? And that's really important because using that information, put the improvements in place and then convincing customers that things are working and working with those customers. Once your customer is your best speaking partner for the rest of the organization, when there's trade shows, I can share that we had a previous trade show and we only had good comments with what is happening in service and they speak to all, at all levels of the organization, so these customer feedback is absolutely important, and that really helps you to get that strategy in place and then get buy-in from others. Look, there's something happening within service that actually places you a little bit more on the forefront. And it helps them with the influencing. And it also helps me now to, as I said, quite an aggressive timeline for my 2035 vision. It helps me already to influence our board on what is going to be our investment needed over the next 10 years to reach that. And again, not just coming and say, I need 20 million investment in service. It's really just, listen, next year, maybe we have a million. The year after that, just chipping away at it. And then using that, as you said, as your business case starts growing.

Sarah: You might know you want 20 million over the course of however long, but you're not putting that all out there at one time. You're making it more digestible by having your bigger strategy, but sharing in a more pragmatic manner. I love the point you made about weaknesses. I always say the only difference between, challenge and opportunity is perception. And I think the same is, could be said between weaknesses and growth, right? If you can understand where you're weak, it gives you the opportunity to grow and be better. If you turn a blind eye to those weaknesses, you don't have that opportunity to improve and to evolve.

Clinten: Just to add to that, Sarah, the thing for me is, we all know SWOT analysis. I turn around and call it a toes analysis, which means rather focus on the threats as well as the weaknesses than on your strengths is important. You need to keep that as a baseline. Your opportunities will come at the end of the day, but really focus on the TO area, because that for me is really where it will help. What is the threats coming in from the market? And especially what I do quite often is, I do quite a bit of benchmarking, looking at benchmarking reports from different service industries, which really help you to see into the future what is coming. And we know there's a wave of skill shortages, people not, you can't find skills anymore. I mean, there's a lot of, everybody of us here today probably have field service roles open that we can't fill. In some cases, more than a year open. And this is threat that's coming to us as service industry. But we, instead of us just going, trying to hammer out the traditional way of let's get hiring, let's pay people more, let's do this more. Instead, what is it that we're going to do to really adapt to this? Because if the skills are not there in 10 years, you're going to be selling the machine, but you're not going to get the service. And just imagine you that are also a customer, if you buy a car, you best car on the market, want to pay top dollar, but you're unable to get a service technician to fix the thing for you. This is something that keeps me awake at night.

Sarah: Can you talk about your North Star process and the importance of that?

Clinten: Our industry is extremely fast growing, fast paced, as I mentioned before. And it's really a fantastic industry to be in. We talk with a lot of people, sustainability is important. Having circularity built in, in everything we use is extremely important. Although if you get onto the ground level where our people work, where our customers work, it's filtering through the waste that we generate every single day. Then it's not that sexy anymore, right? Although you're doing a fantastic job, you're doing a great job in terms of helping customers to sort through, turning that waste into a value for them, as well as building in that circularity. So it's fantastic. However, skill sets as well as people are lacking. And how I looked at this is we need to change. Because even we run a lot of university events where we want to attract new talent. And we speak to people. First, people, when I come to your field service, first question, can I work flexible work hours? A hundred percent. And it's, yeah, you can. But if you are three weeks in a field sorting out a customer site, you can't come home two days after that and tell the customer we'll come back again in three days time. It's not sustainable. But this is the viewpoint. And that made me think of how do we adapt rather than adapting to that? So I use the phrase always. How do I make sure that I have a field service engineer, to support the industry 24 by 7, working at their own flexible time, sitting in a coffee shop with their flip flops on fixing a machine? How do we get to that? And that's where I set the North Star. Our North Star vision is really related to how can we make things more sustainable for service? How can we make things more sustainable for our customers? Also giving a bit more leverage to our customers that we are a 24/7 organization, but not be able to parachute an FSE every five minutes onto a site because skill sets are not there or the people will not be there. So this is where we set the strategy that by 2035 will be fully digital, which is very ambitious. I know. And when I had that conversation and I shared that with our sales team, the eyes went, but as I mentioned before, the challenge is that we are going to have these, we don't want to sit in 10 years time selling machines, but unable to support our customer.

Sarah: Yeah. And you have to think big going back to the title of the session and some of what I spoke about this morning, if you are only focusing on incremental improvement, you're not going to be where you need to be 10 years from now. How would you describe the role and importance of storytelling in your process of setting the vision and then creating the influence to sort of get people on board with that vision and help you ultimately execute?

Clinten: Maybe a question, when you have customer, let's say customer compliance, normally it's the rooftop every time it comes through right up to the CEO level sometimes. But how many of us do share good customer comments coming back for that CEO? That's where it starts already. Start influencing there at your senior leadership team, sharing the good news. And I can tell you it's turned around already that we have about more than five good compliments come through. We have maybe one escalation now that gets top level. Escalations will happen. In any organization, it will happen. Something will go wrong. But we should not have that negativity towards what service need to fix this. And this mindset, I had to change for myself because in my previous organization, actually, I had some skip level discussions with some of our senior VPs. And I went to our HR VP and we asked her, what do you think of service? Straight question. And the question of the report back was, I think it's our get out of jail free card. That's really compelling to tell that to your people that you are only here to get the company out of sticky situations. That's not what service should be. We're not a get-out-of-jail-free card. We should be really in the forefront of using that success stories that we have and using that influencing skills and market ourselves. Also, what I've seen is we are all weak and I count myself in. I don't have marketing skills. I think I should have done an MBA on marketing. I should have because we need to market ourselves much better. And this is something that I'm adapting to at the moment is looking at how can we get marketing in place. And I know larger organizations already had a transition to have marketing individuals, service marketing already embedded within their service. But I think this is really also a key point in terms of how do you develop? How do you put service aldi? Because I can tell you in future, we will see that capital investments will become more scarcer. And you're going to see as a service will be taking a much more forefront because we see that in our organization. If you have as in as a service, you actually have more control over that product because then you look at sustainability. How can you get some of the components back? Do refurbishment on it. Send it back in, which lowers your costs, which helps the environment and which drives a lot of areas of modularity as well as if you design something that's modular, you don't need to send somebody there to fix it. Ask the customer to plug and play, send the old one back. You have a repair center. That's the type of thinking that you need to think. But it's one of the things that we do in TOMRA very well is our service department is embedded from gate zero process in our product planning, which is extremely important that you have a service individual there that can ask to keep on reminding people. How would you think we need to service that? Just questions like this so that you actually can start designing equipment that's serviceable and sustainable for the future. And it can actually help you drive some of that strategy, so.

Sarah: I think the point you make about marketing is really interesting and important because going back to the point about storytelling. So I think storytelling is a really important skill, not only in marketing, but especially in marketing. But when you think about how this applies to service, there's a few different facets. So one is related to what you're talking about in terms of sharing those good stories along with the escalations, which, as you mentioned, are going to happen because you want to tell a more accurate story of what service means to the business. It isn't just the problems. It isn't just the get-out-of-jail-free card. It's all of these good things as well. That's how you end up telling the story of the potential and the possibility and the growth opportunity, etc. There's this storytelling component that you as a function have to do upward to get the investment you need, etc. Then there's the storytelling aspect to the market, to the customers, probably where you're thinking about the marketing. And this is a really big challenge in this space because we tend to not have a marketing function. So we go to market in internal language. I will never forget a conversation I had with a gentleman a few years ago. He was so frustrated and I felt for him so much. But he was saying, we've invested in IoT, but none of our customers want to buy it. Because they're going to market saying we've invested in IoT and here's why you should care. The customer doesn't care. They're taking their internal language and trying to sell it externally. And it's a failure every time. It's the same thing. It's just, again, flipping the narrative. You need to be able to think about, here's what we're doing internally, which we have to educate ourselves on. But what that means to our customers externally is what we need to go to market with. And then you have storytelling from the perspective of the talent landscape. How are you telling the story of what it means to work for your business today and in the future? How are you creating a compelling story that people who don't know what field service is, will want to buy into and become a part of? So it is an incredibly important skill. And I think your point about marketing is a good one because there's a lot of different applications for that skill set to help leverage the different places you need to be telling those stories, not just with the customers, but beyond that.

Clinten: And Sarah, that's the biggest killer for any strategy or losing gravitas in a business is once you fail. Once a customer says, service is presenting something, it means nothing to me as a customer. And that negativity then goes back to the organization again. Then you start losing that innovation, especially in service, where you want actually people to be more innovative.

Sarah: Yeah. Going back to your big vision for 2035, I want to break this out into a couple components. So you mentioned that you believe as a service is going to be the future for TOMRA. And I just want to kind of reinforce some of the things that you touched on in terms of how you think about your... I can't remember how you worded it, but your technician sitting in the coffee shop and flip-flops doing their work, right? I'm sure for some people that sounds far-fetched, but it isn't necessarily, right? And so I think this idea of as a service, right, maintaining ownership. The other benefit of that, if you remember what I spoke about this morning is, if you maintain ownership of those assets, you avoid the issue with not being physically on site to do service, right? Because at that point, when you're maintaining that ownership, it doesn't matter how you're guaranteeing the uptime or doing what needs to be done. The customer is paying you for the uptime, not the how of it, right? A lot of times, it's when we're trying to implement some of these technologies that allow for that 2035 vision for the technician, under a more traditional relationship, then we start to run into some barriers. So anything else you would say you're thinking about that is going to be key to making that 2035 vision come to life?

Clinten: Yeah, this is really the trick question. How do we get there? We are really looking at what is our customers' challenge and pain points today. And our customers are faced with similar issues. They also have engineering staff on site. They also have a churn of staff coming in, coming out. Skills are dropping. And I know, speaking to customers, they're looking at the future of having fully autonomous waste management plants. Just imagine everything dropped off, everything runs through. Somebody sits at home with a mobile phone just looking at the production process. And that's how we want to look at it. Because it is going to be a challenge to have the tangible. They pay, break and fix. Somebody arrives, speaks to the customer and replace that with the intangible of you actually having that proactive support that can actually give a heads up to somebody that something will go wrong and then obviously commercialize this. And this is part of our incremental steps that we are going to bring in. We're already looking at there are some more tougher regions. We're due to safety concerns, which you don't want to send people. And this is actually an ideal area for us to start using this as a proof of concept for us and start building this out over the next 10 years. But I think it's really just using that information coming in. But you need to have the right digital tools and you need to have the right processes in place. A lot of areas, making sure that you have a lot of automation in your processes. If you don't have that basics grant work done, any tool will fail. Any application that you will implement will fail. So that's basically where we are focusing on making it more standardized, easier to adapt, not over killing it, because I also speak to a lot of organizations where they have every tool under the sun, every applications, but nothing speaks to each other. So I don't know what's worse, not having it or having it. But this is where you really need to be careful of using something very quickly. Go too big, too fast. But at the same token is really just using the customer experience to drive some of this. And again, who's going to stand against, you know, an organization if customer needs something and you can provide that solution to them.

Sarah: What's interesting, Clinten, and something you said made me think of this. So you were talking about the difference in this world where in a break fix environment, everything's very visible. The technician shows up to fix what's wrong. They interact with the people, they leave. I don't think that's what a customer wants. They want the outcome. Right. But we're very accustomed to that physical experience. Okay. So one of the things that's interesting about the shift to outcomes for me is we talk a lot about like the customer wants ease. They want simplicity. They want peace of mind. They want the outcome. But they don't only want that. Right. Because the outcome is intangible and invisible. Really, if it's just always there, it's just always happening. So they actually want the outcome and they also want insights into how the outcome is achieved. So it comes back to storytelling in the sense of as you work toward that 2035 vision. You need to be thinking about how do we achieve the outcome in this new way of working and this new customer relationship. But how do we use storytelling to show the customer the value that we're ensuring, protecting, providing. Even though they don't see us doing it. Because they're not going to want to pay you if they don't have that context. They want the context. It just needs to be very simple and it needs to be in their terms. So we avoided X amount of downtime through this technology. We eliminated the need for an onsite repair through this, right? And understanding to your part earlier, what's the cost associated with that to them? And how can you then illustrate the value you're providing their business, even though they're not seeing you doing it? It's really interesting to me that we have to think not just about our ability to provide the outcome, but our capability to showcase in very simple value-oriented terms, how we've done that. So the customers understand where their investment is going.

Clinten: So in the aerospace defense industry, customers there were very much about uptime. So we had to sign up to service level agreement with 99% uptime availability, 15 minutes response, one five-minute response and a three-hour repair time. That's how critical it was to them. Just because and they only pay for throughput, throughput through the machine, how quickly and how is the safest way they could get a check-in luggage onto an airplane identified, fully secure. And that was the outcome that was there. Although it had the challenges where you couldn't connect to an airport remotely. So you actually had to throw people at this. But that taught me a lot of things in terms of what is the outcome that customers want. And this is what I've seen. In TOMRA, they require only uptime availability at the highest level. When I say level, sorting capacity. If something drops below a certain threshold, machine should be giving a signal through. This material dropping below this, you get a technician remotely to change the parameters slightly up. You send a quick report to the customer, say, Mr. Customer, just to let you know, you don't even know. Customers don't even know that this has happened. This is your percentage back again. And that's how we want to try to change the intangible is really sharing that a customer can see they get much better yield from the waste that goes through their plants. That's a few basics. But it's really just in our case, customers don't care if they only care about is that machine available? Is that machine available? Is it running? Is it running at their highest available parameters that's needed to get a better yield for them? Yes, they enjoy that. When I pick up the phone, I want to have the FSE there. With a service level agreement or without a service level agreement? They just want that machine to be fixed. And I think this is where we also need to think of, I see this as value add for customer at the end of the day. I think we all charge our customers, travel, accommodation, plus then the labor hours on site, plus this. Imagine you go to a customer and say, instead of me investing in Lufthansa, I'm not charging you, but you will pay for the hours that we actually do this proactive service for you. And that's where it comes down to, is really saving money and cost to our customers, that overall total cost of ownership, but getting to a place where you can actually put on a piece of paper that you're guaranteeing a certain level of uptime availability, being that 99% according to this target.

Sarah: Okay, you said just around two years, you've been in this role and you're creating this vision, you're working toward shifting the mindset, navigating the culture, managing change. I have to imagine there could be hard days, days where you might feel like you're fighting an uphill battle or anything like that. How do you stay positive and motivated to continue to push toward that vision?

Clinten: If you are frustrated with things quickly, you should not be in service. That's my advice. We are in service because we have a lot of resilience. Even if it is whatever happens in organization, you need to stay cool, calm, relaxed, and make sure that things happen. If you're unable to do that, like I said, then I would go back being a bookkeeper or an accounting department. I think this is one of the key learnings for me. And on top of this is, yes, there are frustrating days when things doesn't go according to plan. Yes, there are frustration in terms of some decisions that's been made that you haven't, but you need to adapt to it. You need to maybe just give that some thought. I think very younger in my career, I was one of the type of service managers that will take on everything. And I think I was the guy with that cape on. And if something goes wrong, I will make sure it gets fixed. And as I progressed through my career, one of my mentors said to me, you know what? You are too deep in the weeds. And because you are so good at what you are doing, you'll never move up in your career. But in the weeds is where I'm comfortable. That's where I am. Yes, it makes frustrated, but the most rewarding is getting something back on track, getting a customer to say, oh, fantastic work, Clinten. Yes, we had a problem, but you guys have sorted everything out. That was rewarding. Ultimately, what I also try and encourage my service team is don't get too stuck in that daily weeds because then you're starting to really losing perspective of the bigger picture. You have to take time out. And this is what I'm doing. I take enough time out to actually look at things. Are we progressing? How are we going according to our business plan? Asking questions, speaking to different people in the organization. And if I get really frustrated, I go see customers that are very happy with our service. It's also good to speak to those customers and just get a positive view back again.

Sarah: I think it's a really important point. And it sounds very simple. You have to keep time to look at the innovative things and think ahead. It's not easy to do at all, though. It is very easy to get consumed by the needs of the business today and just lose that track of time where you need to be thinking ahead. And so I think, though, you making time for that and you prioritizing that balance is what will be the difference between you hitting that 2035 vision and another company not being where you will be at that point, because it is incredibly important.

Clinten: It's also important to keep on transforming yourself. Prior, like I said, 2019 BC, I think this photo was, I think, taken then I was about 120 kilograms. And when COVID started striking, I still did work remotely from home, but I actually started running. Now, just imagine, I was 120 kilos. When I say running, I was walking 10 meters and then running five meters. But it progressed over time. I would have never thought I'm a runner, but today I'm running. I looked at my own health mentality, all of this type of areas, and it actually then starts helping you to think much more clearer of what it is that you want to set up. I think it's really, really important. Otherwise, we as service get pulled into the weeds too deep, too much, makes you frustrated. It doesn't give you job satisfaction. And you really need to look at, and then people start seeing that because they see that you are stressed. They see that you are under the cushion. And then nobody wants to kind of speak to service because they're scared you bite their heads off. So if you actually start transforming that much higher, keep the positivity, suddenly your CEO says, that's quite, I'm surprised that service is actually showing much more positivity in an organization. So it really starts from the top.

Sarah: Yeah, and I think if you want to be able to maintain that resilience in what you're trying to accomplish at work, you need to take care of yourself. You have to prioritize that as well. Clinten, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.