In a session from the Future of Field Service Live Tour in Paris on May 24th, Sarah talks with Emmanuelle Duchesne, Customer Service Director and Stéphane Dabas, IT Director, both of Culligan, about how they work to create a business and IT partnership that delivers superior customer and employee experiences.

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome, welcome. Thanks for being here. Oh, goodness. Okay. Hello.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: Hello.

Sarah Nicastro: All right. So we are going to have a conversation about how do we create a business and IT partnership that will deliver superior customer and employee experiences. So that's a tall task to live up to. Yes. All right. So why don't you both introduce yourselves before we get started.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: Okay. So good afternoon. I'm Emmanuelle. I work as a Customer Experience Director at Culligan. I'm also in charge of all transformation projects that relate to service. I joined Culligan 13 years ago. I have a financial background as internal controller, internal auditor, financial controller. Then I moved to projects and I was also service director at Culligan so I was managing technicians and back office people. So I have a operational field role and now I'm back into project and into customer experience and that's a subject I really like. Talking about, a little bit about Culligan. So Culligan is a U.S. company that was founded in 1936 so we have a global presence across the globe, 200 countries.

Sarah Nicastro: I didn't realize it was 1936.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: Yeah. So what we do, we manufacture, we sell, we install, and we service water treatment equipment. We have B2C activity. We have in France, 200,000 customers in B2C and B2B 80,000. So we have an excellent NP score, 75%. So Mary set up the goal for us now at 80 so we are super jealous, but so we're not so good, but we were proud but we have seen room to...

Sarah Nicastro: You felt good before you got here.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: Definitely.

Sarah Nicastro: That's not the goal.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: And also our business model, we have a lot of service contracts. So each time we sell 10 pieces of equipment, we sell nine contracts so we have recurring revenue, that's part of our business model and we set up this 20 years ago. So it's a mature activity. And how do we achieve 75%? It's because of good products, good service, dedicated team, technicians, and back office people. Good process and good tools that Stephane and his team are helping to implement. So Stephane.

Stephane Dabas: Thank you for the nice words, Emmanuelle. So I'm Stephane, I'm the IT director in France in Switzerland for the last 11 years.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: Yeah, I arrived before you.

Stephane Dabas: And before that, I was working as a project manager at Accenture for five years and then 10 years at PPG, which is a leading paint manufacturer. It's a U.S. company. You know that.

Sarah Nicastro: Pittsburgh Plate and Glass, right?

Stephane Dabas: Exactly.

Sarah Nicastro: It's near me.

Stephane Dabas: Yeah. Okay. They don't do glass anymore.

Sarah Nicastro: I know.

Stephane Dabas: It's paint now.

Sarah Nicastro: Paint, yes.

Stephane Dabas: And in that company, by the way, I was for three years responsible for the customer care team. There was no field service activities, but it was customer care. Having said that, so in France we have a team of 15 people, half of them are dedicated to a customer relationship. Customer is Emmanuelle and all the people. It's really key, in fact to have that dedicated people to discuss with the business because as we were saying, in fact, what is critical and most difficult I would say is not the technology, it's being able to listen and from this listening then to create things together. That's one of the key things.

What I wanted to add on Culligan, in fact five to six years ago we had a new owner who decide that there was a pretty good potential with Culligan but we were not big enough. So basically, gave us some money to buy and what we can say today, we are 10 times bigger than what we used to be six years ago. So lot of acquisition, lot of acquisition. And that's already apart from the topic and how we're going to discuss about projects and so on. We, as a company, build all the competencies to acquire, well first assess, see what is available on the market assess and so on. And as IT support we give the assessment of the business and then integrate. Because that requires quite a lot of work, and as an example, I think last year we did...

Emmanuelle Duchesne: Five.

Stephane Dabas: Five acquisitions in France. So it is quite-

Sarah Nicastro: It's a lot of work.

Stephane Dabas: It's quite a lot of work, but it's very interesting. I mean it's better to be in a company that acquire and grow rather than layoff and sell factories.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, okay. So I mentioned I've been in this space for about 15 years and so when I started interviewing people, I would say, generally speaking, the technology decisions were all made or mostly all made by IT. Things were a lot more stagnant than they are now. So we have a need, we evaluate systems, we put a system in place, we'll sit there for the next five, 10 plus years and we'll move on to the next thing. Obviously, that has changed a lot and I would say future field service tends to attract more of a business title or role just because it's my fault. I mean not my fault, but it's probably just because of what I naturally tend to talk about. But I do think that how much that relationship has evolved, I thought it would be really interesting to have a conversation about what that looks like and what it means. So you've both been with the business for-

Emmanuelle Duchesne: We are dinosaurs.

Sarah Nicastro: No, you are not. But tell me I in your own words, how has the relationship between the business and IT evolved in the time that you've been with the company?

Stephane Dabas: I would start even a bit before. If I just shortly, my perception is the following. In the old time, so before the year 2000, basically, we were living in a world that was pretty close. So the technology of connecting systems was not existing basically. So we're in a world that in fact IT was about implementing servers, computers, and system, but it was closed system. So it was better to have a big system than trying to do most of it and run most of the business without problem. And that time indeed was pretty rigid and you were relying very much on the IT if you wanted to improve something. Then, from year 2000, let's say we start to have open systems. So the technology was here say, well instead of having a single system, that was all, I start to build some best of breeds application that could connect to each other and then there was a tendency to look at this best of breed system, say, "Well this does better than my ERP, so I want that one." But that's when the shadow IT started.

So some editors of that brilliant system start to go to the business leader say, "Hey, I can do that for you." "Oh, I love that." "Yeah, but I need to refer to IT." "No, no, you don't need to refer to IT."

Emmanuelle Duchesne: No, don't. Otherwise, nothing will happen.

Stephane Dabas: Exactly, exactly. Otherwise, nothing would happen.

Sarah Nicastro: No, that was definitely-

Stephane Dabas: Which was true at that time, which was true.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Stephane Dabas: So many, I mean shadow IT started and actually was picking just because actually there was brilliant solution that was doing a brilliant job, but there was no connection with the other system. And that's later on when the IT was requested to start connecting the system, say, "Hey, what's going on? What have you done with that?" And it took some time for the IT to relay that they were not quick enough at implementing. They were not, actually-

Emmanuelle Duchesne: Understanding the business need.

Stephane Dabas: The business indeed. Otherwise, would've not been here. And they didn't have the understanding of the technology that enables to connect the systems. So it took quite some time before say, "Okay, having a best of breed system that does that without connection is good, but it does not do all." So we need now to connect and that's when the business and IT started to discuss again. Is a better relationship. I say, "Okay, now we'd better talk to each other and start working."

Sarah Nicastro: It was a little tense at first though.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: No, no, between us it was not tense.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. What's your take?

Emmanuelle Duchesne: Actually, Stephane and myself, we came in, came on board because of the issues between IT and business because I started at Culligan and Culligan France were in the middle of a transformation project that was, yeah, 12 years ago. And nothing was working because what has been designed, it was delivered to the team. The team was only IT, no business people, and when the business people starting using the tool say, "Hey, how can I do that?" "Oh, it hasn't been planned." So it was total disaster. Fortunately, it was implemented just at a pilot region, but it was total disaster. And then I was not working for France and the CEO came, I don't know, he came to me and said, "Oh you want to manage the project?" And since I like challenges, "Oh yeah, sure." So I took over and I think you came in one year after, but in the story they fired the previous CIO.

Sarah Nicastro: And you're both still here so that says so about how you turned it around.

Stephane Dabas: It's a long story.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. So all right. So we talked about what changed that made the partnership important.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: Yeah. Can I say something?

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, absolutely.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: Yeah. In recent years we saw that IT started using the same customer care processes like surveys, like ticket system. They felt pressure to deliver. Before, you could send a request, and after a month, "Really, so did you see my request?" "I don't have time." Now they've understood that it's a partner relationship. They have internal customers that serve end customers and end customers they pay our salary so now it's completely different.

Stephane Dabas: Absolutely.

Sarah Nicastro: So there's more of an aligned objective right?

Stephane Dabas: Yeah, absolutely.

Sarah Nicastro: Everything is oriented toward the sort of customer centricity. It allows more common goal. Right?

Emmanuelle Duchesne: Yeah.

Stephane Dabas: And I wanted to add one important thing to me, which is in fact the old time, let's say very old time, the innovation, we expected the innovation to come from IT, but it was too slow, too far, not strong enough and so on. Today I prefer to have Emmanuelle looking at what is available on the market, what technology is available and that makes sense for the business. That makes sense. Prefer to do that and comes back to us, say, "Well I've seen that and I've seen that." Then we start fighting, say, "You're crazy, you can't do all the same time," but it's good discussion. So really the innovation, what is available in technology is not an IT matter, it's really a business matter and we are working together. So everything related to the business it's...

Emmanuelle Duchesne: And in my opinion, two things. Today, that's just my opinion. Companies, they have pressure on cash and investment where they want to put the money. They cannot wait forever for years like before, unless they're very big groups and they can pay consultants, they can pay a lot of money to...

Sarah Nicastro: No, no, no. You were saying they don't want to invest if things are going well, but you can't not, right? Yeah, sorry.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: Yeah. So in my opinion, most companies, they cannot enter two years, three years project without seeing a single dollar before three years. They need to have quick wins. And in my opinion, it's not because it's simple, because it's not expensive that it's not going to work and deliver value. And what we've seen, we have some examples that sometime we're able to very quickly implement things and deliver a lot of value for customers and for employees.

Stephane Dabas: That's correct. That's right.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. So we've talked about the evolution and why it happened. Can we talk a little bit about how do you create a productive collaborative relationship? Okay. Because I'm sure when the need first arose to collaborate more, there was some tension, some friction, but we have to work well together. How do you make sure that the business and the IT teams are communicating effectively, prioritizing the right things, making decisions together? Just talk a little bit about what that successful partnership looks like to you.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: Just to give you an example, at Culligan each year we have the internal CX months. So the teams from the headquarters, they go on the field and they work with the teams. So that's very good opportunity.

Sarah Nicastro: So every function from headquarters goes into the field with technicians.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: So they go with technicians, they go with back office people and they actually see the real work.

Sarah Nicastro: I like that. Yeah.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: So that's a way to really understand what's going on, what are the challenges and sometimes they realize, "I didn't know you had to enter two times the same data." Say, "Oh, maybe I have an idea." And I love that because that really delivers value. And then the people from the field, they will worship you for that. It's just simple things but then you make their day and their life and their months because it's a game changer for them. And I think it's something we need to even foster more to encourage more to build trust and yeah.

Stephane Dabas: Exactly, and to me, trust is a key word. Building trust is not something you decide. It takes time and you need to make afford to build trust. But once you build trust, you can fight. Actually we are fighting, we don't have easy conversation all the time, but we know each other enough that when we say something, it's not against Emmanuelle or against myself. I know that. It's from the business.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: For the business because we're so passionate.

Stephane Dabas: We are just sharing ideas and opinions. It's normal to disagree. It's positive conflicts and you can have this good discussion only when the trust is here.

Sarah Nicastro: You have to trust each other, but how do you work through those positive conflicts?

Stephane Dabas: Well, first building trust. So building trust again, how do you build that trust? And our President, Florent Carbonneau is a big fan of that. He has spent a lot of time with all these executive committee to build trust. He took us in some exercise and some committee. It was really two hours spending only for the purpose was to build trust, know each other, and capitalize on that. So that's why I'm saying the real exercise you have to do that and you should do that, of course, at the executive team level, but in all teams and together with the business, that's really critical. When do we have conflicts? Well...

Emmanuelle Duchesne: I can't remember the last one.

Stephane Dabas: I do.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: Okay.

Sarah Nicastro: I love that.

Stephane Dabas: I do. No, it was, yeah, it was a good one. I will tell you later.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: Oh, no.

Sarah Nicastro: I'll tell you later.

Stephane Dabas: Maybe.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: Yeah, I think we had a conflict maybe two years ago because I wanted to implement a tool that now has been implemented and is a real game changer for the teams. And Stephane was saying, "No, it's not in the roadmap. The AMA won't like it." And then today you are the best advocate of it.

Stephane Dabas: Hey, no, no, no agree. But again, it was more a matter of resource. Did we have the resource to make it? And it was at that time not, we didn't have the resource.

Sarah Nicastro: So I'm hearing that Emmanuelle is tenacious.

Stephane Dabas: Yeah, you can say that.

Sarah Nicastro: It's such a good trait. I'll tell you a quick side story. So when years and years ago when my husband and I were first married, I asked him a very foolish question. We were in the car and just causing trouble. I said, "Hey babe, what one word would you use to describe me?" So why would I say, I mean you know that's just going to start an argument. I don't know what I was thinking. I don't know what I expected, loving, whatever. And he said, "Tenacious." And I'm like, "Tenacious?" He is like, "No, that's a good thing."

Emmanuelle Duchesne: Stubborn.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. Yeah. No, it is a good thing. Okay, so...

Stephane Dabas: I just wanted to add one thing.

Sarah Nicastro: Yes, please do.

Stephane Dabas: Come back on one thing. So you need to build trust, but you also need to find the right people in your team to be able to work together and in both teams. So I'll take you through an example. So we have just started transformation, the new transformation project with Emmanuelle. We're working on that. It's very nice one. Very nice one. Everybody loves it. We had to choose who going to participate in the project, who will be the key players, and especially the business process owners. So we have spent quite some time discussing the people this BPO function, what will be the function, what is the expectation from that role and who will be there and spent really a lot of time.

And I remember the word of our CIO say, "Be careful and be sure to take the right decision. Have the right person. If it doesn't hurt the organization to have this person moving to that position, then he's not the right guy. You are investing when you're doing such a project, you are investing on the long term. Make sure you are making the right decision and the right person on that."

Sarah Nicastro: That's a wise statement because a lot of times, again, going back to, I know we're not talking about disruptive innovation, but just change in general, that tendency not to disrupt the status quo can be so strong that they would say, "Don't take the best person. We need them to keep doing this thing."

Stephane Dabas: Exactly, exactly.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, I think that's really wise.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: But we took the best person.

Stephane Dabas: No, no, sure.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. So choose the right people.

Stephane Dabas: Yep.

Sarah Nicastro: Trust.

Stephane Dabas: Trust. They need trust.

Sarah Nicastro: And what else?

Stephane Dabas: So, of course, when should the person, they need to be very open. They need to be able to listen, understand, ask questions as you were saying. And you have also to organize this relationship. So it relates to the governance and who is leading what and have a clear view of what is expected from the other party. Of course, it makes sense on what I'm saying, but it is very important also to spend time at the very beginning on clear description of what is expected and the governance model and now governance model, our project, our business driven project, basically, with business case.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: The foresee you were mentioning. Does it serve the customer, does it serve the employee, and does it serve the company performance? We're still missing the carbon footprint.

Stephane Dabas: Yeah. Yes.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: Which needs to be more. It's starting. Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay, good. So you mentioned how rapidly you've been acquiring organizations. So that makes me think of a few things, but I mean one is as those folks come in, you're trying to, I assume, bring them onto a standard and get them onto a cohesive system. I'm also thinking about change management, which isn't necessarily a topic we have to get into, but I'm just thinking the pace at which you're bringing new people into the business that you have to handhold into here's what the new reality looks like, right? But from an IT perspective, how does that work with the companies that you're acquiring? How do you manage bringing those people in and getting up to speed?

Stephane Dabas: Basically, depends on the size of business you are acquiring and how far it is from your existing operations. So the latest acquisition we made or the one we made last year, the business model which was pretty different and we keep them on a separate system. Basically, in fact, we roll out the financial system just to be on the same system. But for the operation, they are still running on their system because the business model is pretty different. We are quite company business model was very similar, just talking. It's a data migration basically. You take from their system, integrate them, you run, you have a single system operation and then managing a consistent way for the business is perfect. And sometimes you are making larger acquisition. The merger we did with the Waterlogic, which takes more time because of the size. And here it was a good opportunity for us to review, in fact, our own basically our own strategy.

What I'm saying that, in fact, there was two coincidence. Because of this acquisition, we have many different application across the globe with so many different systems and can become quite a nightmare. So that's fine. So we're at the stage from Culligan side at the stage say, "We need to rationalize that, we need to adopt a standout and have a quick way to roll out that system to the different acquisition." So that was one. And from the other companies, so Water Logic, basically they were about at the same stage. So, they had landscape that was so-so, and they were building an ERP, they were a bit in advance compared to Culligan. A bit in advance in terms of holding out but they were building a sort of core system. I don't say the word core system. And when we opened the book, we realized that, basically, we made the same system choice.

It was surprising, so we had a trial with SAP, it was a total disaster. We decided, we looked at all the things, we tried a bit of Microsoft, was not successful, and we start at Culligan roadmap with IFS and the same thing happened at Waterlogic. So, when we open, even though IFS is not the widest system used in the company, we both made the same choice and the same for the ERP, and the same apply with all the lead to contract system. So we both said that Salesforce is what we wanted to have or when I say we, of course it is a business.

So we realized that we were pretty close. So it was obvious, I mean in term of IT strategy, it was pretty obvious that we will go to the separate, these two main systems. The only thing that is important to keep in mind, also from home, the DNA of Culligan, we want to stay pretty local. So I wouldn't talk about standardization to our CEO for instance, he doesn't like the word standardization.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay.

Stephane Dabas: And I was in the U.S. three weeks ago. He came to the meeting room where I was standing all the IT guys and he had the 30-minute speech.

Sarah Nicastro: No one say standardization.

Stephane Dabas: Say no standardization. For IT guys, "Oh, what's going on?" But basically, his point is the following. What makes the difference is the point of impact. So where is your point of impact with your customers and with your employees? It is locally. It is locally on the field, is at the technical tech level, and who's better than the French management, who's best to decide what is good for your French business? Because in fact, as you understand for Emmanuelle, we have a pretty say local market. We are not paying on the global market. It's pretty local market so keep it simple.

So that's why I don't like the word core system. It's not because you are choosing one single system that you download to have to implement at control level specific process. That's my point. But still, it's quite a challenge. For IT, it's quite a challenge but we manage that.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. No, I could get into a whole another conversation because I'm curious, I get the point about letting the local operations stay true to what point of impact they have with customers, with the workforce. Obviously though, there has to be some shared systems, resources, et cetera, right? So I'm sure that's interesting to sort out. So other than the project that's in place to put what we don't like to call a core system in place, what are some of the other biggest areas of focus for Culligan as a business?

Emmanuelle Duchesne: So in our strategy, we are and we want to continue and to grow as a customer-centric company. So that's me, that's my big challenge. It's on my roadmap. So I'm in the transformation project, but I would like really to bring a real customer culture mindset because sometimes you do well customer washing say, but actually in your process, in the people you recruit, you onboard, are you really focusing on customer? So that's really something that is important. And so it's important for customer satisfaction, for customer retention. I don't think we have that today, but for us, it's very important because it costs five times more to acquire a new customer than retain an existing customer. And if an existing customer is satisfied, it means referral. It means more value, lifetime value so it's very important for us so we're working on that and we are investing in processes and also with AI.

So for me, I'm looking at everything that AI can bring us in terms of data analysis. That's also how do we make good use ethical as well, use of our data, how the business can use it to generate revenue, to retain customers, and of course, employee retention. Because if you have good tools, you have happy employees and you have happy customers.

Stephane Dabas: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Sarah Nicastro: Okay.

Stephane Dabas: So other areas particularly, so where we stand at Culligan, so we believe that in terms of customer portal, so we could go a bit further. So we also already provide the customers’ ability to book their own appointments with the texts. But basically, we almost only do that, which is good. And we want to go a bit further in terms of, so offering, in fact what is key, get your customer engaged with our company is probably what you also at that deal. You want to have your customer engaged so the more you offer to him to self-serve, the more he's engaged with your company and the more he will stay.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: That's also something we want to be better at self-care knowledge database to let the customer manage what I call level zero, level one request and what goes to customer service are more difficult requests. And also the people in customer care, they really need to have the right mindset, which is in place in 95% of the case. But I always like to say you need service. Customer care is not a cost center, it's a revenue generating center. And just keep this in mind and if a customer is unhappy and comes to you, that's an opportunity because you were talking about neuroscience this morning and I read something about that and I thought that was very interesting. When the customer is coming to you with a claim, it's because he has trust that you will solve his problem. So he's scared, he needs to be listened, he needs to have comfort, he needs to get an answer and a solution.

And whatever the relationship you had with him during 20 years, you know, you deliver the service. He's paying for its normal. But the day he comes with a problem, if you are able, he has a negative emotion and if you are able to transform in the positive experience, he will remember on this day, he'll say, "Culligan they are great. I had a problem, they solve it in five minutes, I'm happy." And he talk about that and that's something he will remember in his brain.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. It's an opportunity to create trust and closer relationships. I was also thinking another interesting aspect of how I guess the relationship between business and IT, but also just the landscape overall has changed is this idea of, so you're working on this big transformation project right now with putting the core system in place, but you're already thinking, and then next we want to work on our customer portal and then we also want to work on our knowledge base, et cetera. So I think that's this other big shift is that probably even when you started at Culligan, it was a lot more. There was a big project you worked on that it was done. Now it's a lot of continual improvement, refinement. Looking at how do you get more value out of the technologies you have in place. What do you add on top of that to create more value for your employees or your customers? So it's a lot more of a agile environment.

Stephane Dabas: Yeah, absolutely. There are two things in what you're saying. So first is every time there's new an idea, so we try to identify what is the ROI, what is the value basically, and that has changed from the past. So value creation is really key for any kind of request, change request on a regular basis. Every time say what is the value of that? How much? And it doesn't mean that will not make it, but we have a monthly review of all the requests, basically, depending on the service. And basically, the business is telling us you should start with that, that, that, that, that. So we rank them, of course, and what does the business, the thing that brings more value that will be on the top of the list. Makes sense.

So really working very hard on what is the value creation behind the request. So that's one second, as you were saying, methodology of running the project. So the agile methodology is being used now completely. Yeah, it is adopted. That's what we have adopted as methodology for our project and it has changed a lot for us. So we used to have this project, this cycle where takes long time, month to develop, and there is this tunnel where you see nothing. You have expressed your needs and you are waiting at what point of time say, "Oh here it comes, but it doesn't match what I've said." We all know that. So that has changed a lot and that was very good.

Sarah Nicastro: So when you both think about what does the next five years look like? So we've talked about the evolution of the relationship and what makes it successful today. What do you think the future holds?

Emmanuelle Duchesne: I don't think in five years range. For me, now, we’ve all seen the AI ChatGPT, how fast. So I think if we don't go into these things quickly, we will quickly be outdated.

Sarah Nicastro: Fall behind.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: Yeah.

Sarah Nicastro: It's enough to keep pace, not think about what's coming next, is what you mean. It's hard enough to keep up. You're not worried about five years from now.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: Yeah, because who can say? I think if we meet in five years what we said today, maybe in two years it would've been totally different.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.

Stephane Dabas: And because Emmanuelle is saying that she has a new idea, it's a brilliant idea. There's business case there behind it, and then it needs to be done tomorrow.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: I have too many ideas. Yeah.

Stephane Dabas: We have to adapt.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: It's always bring value.

Stephane Dabas: No, no, I agree. Agree.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: I have a strong business case. Huh? The best in the company. No, I'm just kidding.

Stephane Dabas: No, no. But what do you mean in terms of five years’ time. So what we have to improve in the five years’ time or what we need to improve anyway, first is to adopt all the tools that enables you to quickly integrate solutions. We're saying you have best of breed. So I was talking about Salesforce at first, but at the end, you see there is a lot of small application that do a piece of things and it helps the agility and the fact that to be quick to integrate into integration, we are adopting these tools and you have to insource some of these capabilities because it is crucial.

Second, we have to work on partners and build those strong partnerships with the guy that knows better the technology. So we as IT, we can't manage all the technology, it's to merge there. It's too many, it's different and it's not here. So you need to be sure what creates more value and what you have to in source and the rest, you have to find and select the right partner that will be working with you and the business to create the value. So that's what we are starting to do to reassess, in fact, who are technology providers to make sure to make the right choice. And then once you've done that or in the middle, again, you have to build the trust and the relationship with your partner to make it working efficiently. So that's the thing we are working on to be able to satisfy even well.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: And on the business side, it's not happening within five years, I hope. I want all low value activities to disappear for the business.

Sarah Nicastro: Which I think is an incredibly attainable goal. It's there. It's just, yes. So Emmanuelle, I want to ask you, since you are the other woman in service speaking here today. I want to ask you the question about what are your thoughts on how we bring more gender diversity into our industry? I know I'm throwing you another curve ball, but.

Emmanuelle Duchesne: You are out of the script. No, no. I see more now in the younger generation, you need to trust yourself because men don't want to welcome you. Sometimes women, I always hear that to apply for a job, a woman will wait to have 200% on the skills and men just 50%, they will apply. So I'll know how you call this syndrome, good girl or imposter syndrome, but you need to work on that. And if the women do not have this, you need to have mentors and people pushing them. And in the past, I had a very good boss and he told me, he gave me an advice, say, "Well, you know, Emmanuelle, you will have performance review every year. You will have performance reviews. Good managers, they will tell you what you did well. And they will tell you to focus on that. And you develop what you are best at. And the band managers, they will tell you, "You didn't do this well, well this. So focus on your strengths and that's what you need to do."

Sarah Nicastro: Okay. And oh, I just messed up. But that's all. Thank you so much. Thank you for being here.