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Overcoming the Barriers to Service Growth

Hilbrand Rustema, Founder and Managing Director of Noventum and Marne Martin, President of the Service Management Business Unit at IFS join Sarah to discuss recent research conducted on service growth trajectories and what today’s biggest hurdles to overcome are in achieving service potential.

To access the research referenced in this episode, visit here

Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the Future of Field Service podcast. I’m your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today we’re going to be having a discussion about overcoming the barriers to service growth. I’m excited to have with me today Hilbrand Rustema who is the founder and managing director of Noventum and Marne Martin, who is the president of the service management business unit at IFS. Hilbrand and Marne, thank you for being here with me today.

Marne Martin: Our pleasure Sarah.

Sarah Nicastro: All right, good, okay. Today we’re going to be having a conversation that is building off of some research that Noventum and IFS recently co-created. We’re going to talk a little bit about the research, but then we’re going to dig into a discussion around, what the biggest challenges and hurdles are that companies are facing as we talk about this service transformation and evolution. Hilbrand, can you start us off by just giving an overview of what are the drivers that we’re seeing in service transformation and growth. What is the why behind, why companies are looking to evolve how they’re doing business today?

Hilbrand Rustema: Yeah, sure Sarah. First of all, I would say in industrialized high income countries, the manufacturing sectors they have already for quite a while, they’ve been under pressure. Price pressure on their products, whatever they make usually there’s a lot of competition. They have already for a while, they started differentiating themselves with services. They used to be main product related services but now the competition on services is increasing and I think the fact that you now get more data from your equipment, you can develop a lot of insights, knowledge about how your end users are using your equipment and you can create all kinds of services that address the more, what we call customer business challenges. Things like process optimization, business optimization, as of changing elements in the business model to the benefit of your end customer business transformation services, helping them to really improve a whole function or a process and things like creating what we call this digital ecosystem, optimizing the value chain.

Hilbrand Rustema: These are all new possibilities that have come about and obviously, competition is not sitting still. There’s a lot of these manufacturers that are digitalizing, they’re wondering what to do with it and some of them are quite successful with this. Yeah, why are lots of manufacturers getting into this game? It’s very simple. If they don’t do it, somebody else will do it for them and that will put them behind in this, yeah. I think that’s the main reason.

Sarah Nicastro: Underneath that though, I mean, yeah, if they don’t do it someone else will but, the it is being driven by more sophisticated customer desires and demands, right? I mean, that’s essentially, we’re looking at almost a reality where not only have products become commoditized but I mean, now you hear people that they don’t even want to talk about service. They just want to talk about the outcome, right? What can you do for me? What headache can you alleviate? What part of my problems can you take off my plate? The whole conversation has changed so the customer desires are at the root of this but, there’s companies that are pacing far faster in meeting those needs and so everyone’s in this race to make sure they’re keeping up. Hilbrand, where would you say based on the research you’ve done and the work that you do with different organizations, where would you say most companies are on the journey?

Hilbrand Rustema: Well, we define some major steps in this research. We say, most companies, manufacturers, they start being reactive then they go into preventive services, have preventive maintenance contracts. A lot of the companies in the research, it’s approximately 60%, they are into becoming predictive so using data to improve the type of services and not only predictive maintenance, but also helping customers to look at predicting volumes for example. And then they’re going now towards proactive. Proactive services meaning, you are trying to anticipate what your end customers really need and there you look at the customer business needs.

Hilbrand Rustema: Now, the majority of the companies, the manufacturing companies, they have some level of digitalization and they’re far into these predictive services and the real payoff is when they go to that proactive model. And there you go into these outcome-based services as you say or as a service business models, manage services, process outsourcing and this value chain optimization, the digital ecosystems let’s say. That’s where it’s going and I would say, the majority is still in that predictive phase. It’s really hard to successfully transform towards that proactive model. There are many reasons for that.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. And we’re going to talk about this. Okay, all right. Marne, we talked about customer demand and how that’s at the root if you will of a lot of this change but none of this would be possible without technology and digitalization. Talk a little bit about the role that digitalization plays in this journey to service transformation and service growth.

Marne Martin: That’s an excellent question and I’ll pick up some points related to manufacturing specifically in a moment but, digitalization is what enables asset and customer-centric businesses to thrive. We know that with our economies generally growing, with the supply chain issues, the increased customer demand, it’s no longer an option to have a digital through line and be able to digitalize your processes one for scale, for resiliency, et cetera. Even if you look at verticals like telco utilities where the customer demand from retail customers or business customers is what’s driving the revenue model, but then service is what keeps the infrastructure and the assets up, even there, there’s a lot of investments in service related processes and say next generation technology to facilitate the uptime and the outcomes of what they’re selling, right? Whether that’s national resources, electricity, renewables, telco services, voice data, what have you. With manufacturing, it’s equally as necessary that they digitalize their entire footprint, back office, front office, supply chain, customer experience, et cetera but you have the added complication that service becomes a business for them.

Marne Martin: And one, we know that for them to be most successful at scaling and growing that business, they need to have the data collection, they need to have the digital transformation sufficient to have integrated processes. Again, back office, front office, your field service workers and including the asset or equipment intelligence that they have. That is what I would call table stakes in this day and age. A lot of businesses, either regionally or globally, aren’t at say a resilient and modern place related to their IT ecosystem and framework. Certainly, that is step one, that we partner with customers that, how they assess the problems that they have, how we find the solutions and the benefits too.

Marne Martin: Related to the point that Hilbrand made about how you transition a business to say, digitize business outcomes once you’ve made that investment in say your technology enablers, that’s where it’s really thinking about, what are the type of customer facing and operational folks that know how to migrate from a conventional or maybe even a somewhat more predictive business model because they have the data to start analyzing, becoming more predictive, to really thinking about their business being a digitalized, digitized business outcome model. And there they need people that know how to think that way, how to talk to customers that way. But it not only puts pressure on say backend ERP, also the field service management, the intelligence that you’re getting from the asset, but it’s also driving changes in how we think about even CPQ technology, right? How are we facilitating that crossover of say, getting the value from the asset, being able to be serviced in enhanced ways but also driving the customer experience in every interaction there is and driving the outcomes because you have enough data to become more outcome-centric and you can work that way.

Marne Martin: It’s really a super fascinating time but, per Hilbrand’s point, it’s impossible to move even to predictive or from predictive to a true digital business model in a digital company if you haven’t made the technology investments that you need to make. And then it’s a question of, how you’re changing say your revenue models and the people that you need to move that way. And that’s often what we see a lot of customers when they review say a technology project, if they’re forward thinking, they’re thinking, okay, to get where we think we need to go, this is the technology we need. But they also have to think about, say the culture they need to change, the different types of people they need to recruit to help move them there into that new service model and that digital experience if you will that they are monetizing. I’ll pause there because that’s as much important related to what you do with the technology as the awareness of where the technology or the digitalized gaps are.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, for sure. I mean, depending on the industry and the company, I mean, but particularly when you talk to service leaders within manufacturing organizations like, it’s a real identity change for the business for if they really want to get to the end of this continuum, right?. I mean, if they really want to seize the full opportunity, you’re really talking about fundamentally changing the identity of the business and that, I mean, it’s really, really layered and complex and I think it depends so, so much for those folks on what is the mindset of the top level leadership because I’ve seen stories of manufacturing organizations where the CEO of the company totally gets it and I mean, is excited about the evolution and to see the progress those companies can make versus an organization and I always feel bad for these folks where you have an SVP of service who is literally just running into a brick wall because the CEO is just stuck in the, “No, we manufacture products,” mentality and it’s really tough so, you’re right. I mean, there’s-

Marne Martin: I think your growth… You’re 100% right about that, certainly. And if you think about change management and how you coach problem solving skills, I think that is super important. I know you had a podcast that focused on that, how you look at things in fresh ways and solve problems. I think the other aspect that doesn’t often get addressed but Hilbrand and I have talked about it is that, when you build a more scalable model i.e, you have technology that enables you to scale and sell these new type of digital offerings, the pace of growth can sometimes be too rapid i.e, the new business model becomes more successful. We’ve talked a lot about POCs that never get rolled out, but the reverse is also true that, if you do have the right type of engaged say digital transformation dream team or whatever you call it, and then suddenly you create a new, highly scalable commercial model, that can put stress on the business as well because if you think about a lot of manufacturers, think about growth and what’s possible still from a model built from supply chain or manufacturing dynamics.

Marne Martin: I have enough supplies to manufacture this stuff, my factory has this throughput…. Okay? And that’s still permeating how they think about it. I have enough technicians therefore I can only do this many jobs, then that’s my revenue model for my service business. But when you enable a different type of business that suddenly those say fundamentals aren’t what are the most meaning for your growth, instead, you’re thinking about, look, what do customers want from me? How can I price that? How can I deliver that? And that’s what then drags along everything else. That is a hugely different way of thinking in these businesses. And most of the people that have gotten to a director, VP or C level in these businesses, didn’t come up with that thinking in that scalable business. That was enabled by technology in the ways it can be today.

Marne Martin: And then you also see that a lot of IT professionals that obviously a CIO knows the value of buying technology and filling functional gaps, but thinking about how they themselves can evolve to be more scalable and nimble when the business has evolved alongside is another discussion that internally, thinking about how you form these digital dream teams and is really relevant because otherwise, it seems like companies make two steps forward, one step back, et cetera. And like Hilbrand said, it’s really hard for them to continue say, moving up market into outcomes and experiences and embedding all of this into their day-to-day processes. If they aren’t able to move in lockstep with all the various stakeholders and partners of important.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, okay. The research itself takes a look at this growth journey and what the drivers are, where companies are at, how that’s impacting their business, those sorts of things. And so, we’ll make sure that we link to that report in the show notes so everyone can go take a look at that but, we don’t want to be redundant in the conversation today so we’ll let you look at that. What we’re going to dig into a little bit more is some of these layers of complexity that I think aren’t super obvious when you look at this continuum on paper, right? You look at it and you think, okay, great. At predictive, here’s what we need to do next, perfect. We’ll just set a plan and we’ll get there, right? And it’s not quite that easy. We’ll dig into a few and these are in no particular order. The first one, Hilbrand, Marne just spoke about the critical role of technology in all of this. I mean, you can’t progress through this journey without investing in the technology you need to support it.

Sarah Nicastro: But one of the things that can happen is that, companies know that and so they start to make very rash decisions and they start to make big expenditures without really first understanding the value the customers want which is ultimately what they need to be working toward delivering. Talk a little bit about what happens there and what the advice is, how to be pragmatic in balancing those two things.

Hilbrand Rustema: Yeah. Of course, lots of these companies they are investing heavily in digitalization. Very often when we get involved, it is often out of a bit of frustration from that senior level management because, they’ve done all these investments and they don’t see that return. Very common is that, they haven’t really taken the time beforehand to really understand what problem are they solving with the solution that’s called digitalization, yeah? Developing an understanding of what your customers really need and then particularly putting your service hat on, not just your product hat, yeah? Because if you are also then just open enough to go away from only that product-centric thinking and to really start thinking as how many features functions, and that is very traditional in manufacturing companies. And to really look at, what are the so-called pains and gains of these end customers and what are also some innovative business models that you can think of to addressing those, whatever the customer challenges are.

Hilbrand Rustema: And obviously while you do that, you have to look at your own capabilities. If it’s something that you do not have within your own capabilities or you cannot quickly acquire as a manufacturing companies, it’s very difficult to go and address as you either have to do acquisitions or start huge buildup of talent. You start with what is close to your own capabilities and that’s how you evolve. It is more an evolution than a revolution. But we typically see, they haven’t really thought that through. They may have thought that through but not created a complete vision of that future state. Let’s say having said to each other, “Well, how do we want the business to look like in three to five years, considering that we now have a deep understanding of what our customers really need.”

Hilbrand Rustema: And you cannot go and ask customers what they want because, these services that you may come up with, they don’t exist yet so they don’t know what to ask for. You have to look at, what customers need, think about what are the capabilities that you can bring forward or that you can develop to address it. And that usually results in entirely new business models. You have to think about not only the tangible value that you provide, the lots of engineering cultures, they always love to talk about KPIs and anything that’s measurable but also to think about, what is the intangible value, yeah. Think of yourself as being an insurance company more than that you are a product company delivering tangible stuff, yeah? And to move away from the cost-based thinking, go more into value-based thinking, how do we add value to that customer and have the different definition of quality. At quality, it’s no longer the product specification but it is, what’s the customer experience? What did they anticipate when they thought about your company, your brand? And what’s the real experience?

Hilbrand Rustema: Or, what do you want it to be? And talent, you would have to start thinking about not just the technical talent and excellence let’s say that you can provide but it’s more the, customer handling skills or the consultative skills that you need to figure out what your customers really need. And so, it’s those sort of steps and then I usually say, you need three things to move things forward. You need to have that pretty clear vision including a definition of your service portfolio of the future, you need to have a good business case. You need to have an addressable market, it needs to look good, be profitable and you need to have a plan. And if any of these three things are missing, it’s very difficult to move forward because the biggest, the most difficult challenge you’re going to have is in the organizational transformation.

Sarah Nicastro: Right.

Hilbrand Rustema: Yeah, it’s no longer the digital part let’s say. That’s-

Sarah Nicastro: And I think if you look at the organizational side or the digital side, it seems to me that the biggest challenge is really universal in both which is fragmentation. When you get into silos in either the vision, the strategy, the execution of a plan or on the technology investment side and not making sure that, you could have 10 different tools in place that all on their own serve a really important purpose but then you break the customer experience 10 times, then the end result is frustration, right? And so that’s important but, you touched on a number of things I want to go back to and I was… I mean, you’re really-

Marne Martin: Can I add two things in that-

Sarah Nicastro: Mental gymnastics! I’m trying to keep track of all of them in my head. Marne’s going to test me further. Okay..

Marne Martin: We’re going to do a follow up. We’ll have to do a follow up. I think you hit on something there that’s really important and it ties in with what Hilbrand said. If you think about now with the disconnected, you’ll have customer experience that they try and layer in say within a department or within a use case, right? Moving to predictive means that often you have enough data and you have enough data scientists and/or people that know how to do machine learning, that you can move to a predictive experience. Bringing customer experience more into your processes, your integration, your interactions, thinking about how you have data, data scientists, machine learning expertise to bring to a predictive experience, that’s still a stretch for a lot of companies but the level of change to do that is still closer to where most manufacturers and businesses are. That’s why when you tie back, those of you watching to the research, we’re going to publish from Hilbrand, you see more companies moving from what in that research is the first peer group to the second peer group because it’s an easier evolution for them.

Marne Martin: Assuming that they do care about customer experience and they are able to hold their data enough that they can drive a predictive experience. If you start thinking about how everything becomes an embodiment of customer experience and outcomes and a digital business model, that’s where you see the most challenge to having people that are more entrepreneurial. And for the most successful manufacturers in the world, we’re talking about the huge global brands that we all admire, they haven’t had to be entrepreneurial for a really long time and if they just bring in a chief DX officer or a head entrepreneurial officer, that’s not going to be enough because of all the relationships that have accumulated and been built in these organizations over time.

Marne Martin: This is where the technology side certainly isn’t a small thing to fix, but that is an easier thing to align and fix than the actual organizational change and making some of these companies more entrepreneurial so that they have the ability to do business plans, execute against them with the pivots and the flexibility needed whether it’s, they found out some things are less profitable, some things are more profitable, some things grow faster when they actually start to sell them, et cetera. That really takes entrepreneurship skills and that’s often an under talked about aspect in addition to everything else.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, no, that’s a good point. Okay, a couple things I thought of that I want to go back to. One is, we had a podcast last year and it was titled, is your view of outcomes-based service limiting your success. It was with a gentleman named Chris La Fratta who was at the time at Phillips. I know he’s no longer there, he’s in a different role but, it was a really good conversation. And Hilbrand, it made me think of what you said about, you can’t rely on your customers to tell you the vision because you’re trying to create things that don’t exist yet, right? And so it was a really good conversation talking specifically about he and how Phillips dug into really expanding the outcomes of their customers and hospitals that they could meet, right? It was a really interesting conversation.

Sarah Nicastro: And I think you’re right. I do think I will always be an advocate of the voice of the customer and so I think that, while you can’t expect them to answer the question of, what outcomes-based services would you like us to provide, right? I mean, I think you do need to be really close to having conversations about what are your biggest pain points, what are your biggest challenges? Because the answer to those questions is a really important part of sorting out, what could we do with our skills and expertise to help alleviate some of these challenges. And then of course, come up with ideas beyond that.

Sarah Nicastro: But the point I wanted to go back to is, one of the challenges I think companies face in doing that is that the relationships they have within their customers, that they are selling more transactional services to are far different than the relationships they need to develop to understand those challenges and then ultimately be able to sell advanced services, outcomes-based services to. How does an organization go about building different relationships within the customer base and really getting the level of insight and trust they need to be able to not only reimagine their value proposition, but then sell it successfully.

Hilbrand Rustema: Yeah, it’s a very good question because it’s actually one of the most often asked question I deal with. How do you make your outcome-based services or any advanced services? How do you make it really scalable, particularly, how should that commercial organization or customer facing organization look like? And you mentioned Phillips. I had the pleasure of being involved there in the transformation towards becoming organized around customers and markets rather than being organized around the functional silos. Silos is an implied word, but the different functions, the different product lines and the functions. At the very top of the organization, there needs to be a realization that, hey, the sales cycle first of all, doesn’t stop when you have sold your product and even the product related services with it if you do that at the same time, that’s great. It’s just the start of a relationship.

Hilbrand Rustema: The whole life cycle, the customer life cycle extends beyond that and you have to start looking at, how do you make your customers successful, whatever they’re trying to do, yeah? And therefore, you need to segment your customers. What are the different types? What are their objectives? What are they trying to do? And come with a service portfolio that addresses let’s say, the bigger part of the needs. Don’t try to do 100% because if you try to be all things to all people, that never works. You create a manageable portfolio that is standardized, completely standardized, but not in a rigid way. You have a couple of core propositions and then you have options that are in itself standardized as well. You create what we call standardized personalization. You create unique propositions for customers that you already know you offer the outcomes. You don’t always start talking about what you need, because you should already have a pretty good idea if you have a certain type of customer in front of you so the salesperson should know.

Hilbrand Rustema: But then, how are you going to manage that success or set up your customer’s success organization rather than just your sales organization? And that goes all the way through to whatever you see as the end of life of that customer. And that is obviously for many organizations, that there is no end to that at least that they wouldn’t want that, yeah.

Marne Martin: Adding on to that, Hilbrand I’m curious your thoughts, because we’ve discussed this over time that, as manufacturers start selling digital business outcomes and become more of a value-added services, it not only changes the profiles of the people they have like we talked about and definitely the people in the field or the frontline workers change a lot, but they almost become in a way a technology seller like we are, right? Selling the problem solution benefit we know is how customers view high value buying cycles in technology and it’s the same. If you think about manufacturers that are talking to their customers, they want their customers to feel that they’re getting a high value selling cycle or a purchase and it needs to be tied to problem-solution benefit. There’s also aspects when we sell technology, we’re selling replacement and emerging technology.

Marne Martin: And it’s the same with these service companies, these manufacturers. If they’re selling some things they sold before, but they’re also selling some new things. And how they mobilize the type of stakeholders and buying cycles is something that they’re often not used to when it’s just a conventional service contract. There’s skills that they can actually take from technology vendors like IFS, et cetera on how they think about mobilizing selling the customer success, business value realization as well, not just getting to the sale but the post-sale experience, which is all that Hilbrand was referring to. And that’s where I think that sometimes they don’t look for others say complimentary partnerships or industries where they think about selling and customer success that are relevant. It’s a little bit like science that you have some of the greatest innovations and things when you have the intersection of sciences. And in a way, what we’re now seeing is the intersection of conventional manufacturers with what are becoming digital businesses. And that’s where it’ll be really interesting to see not only how that drives service strategies, the implementation of technology, but really, how they change the art of selling.

Hilbrand Rustema: Absolutely. And maybe to add to that, the talents, they change so much that it’s no longer can be found in one person. It’s not that one salesperson or that one account manager. It is now becoming a multifunctional customer success team. And that team may change over the life or the relationship that you have with that customer depending on the skills and knowledge that you need. And I would say that is a very big challenge first of all, for manufacturing companies to think that way, to envision such type of organization. And indeed you can borrow a couple of pages from let’s say the high tech IT industry where through the SaaS models, this is already common good let’s say. This is something that is well known.

Hilbrand Rustema: One thing I have to add in the manufacturing business is that, it’s a bit more complex also because you are still having to manage the physical supply chains and dealing with the spare parts. I mean, all of that stuff doesn’t go away, it’s just basics. And now you have the digital, the consulting skills, whatever you need, all comes on top of that. For some organization, it’s mind-boggling complex to do this especially in a relatively short time.

Marne Martin: Sure. And we’re seeing that there’s certain high-level trends, circular economies, sustainability, et cetera, that are also driving say evolution when you look at, how people are positioning offerings, what customers value and frankly, managing supply chains. But as an example, going back to, you talked to me about technology investments, reverse logistics was often something that was never looked at in the past but, when you think about the complexity of managing spare part inventories, supply chain and this and that, obviously you have the forward aspects of supply chain and supply chain planning but, businesses are now finally starting to put enough attention and investment into reverse logistics. How embodying this digital business model also comes with a different approach around the fundamentals like Hilbrand talked about, not just, how are they designing from a PLM perspective what they’re manufacturing but how they’re thinking about refurbishment, re-manufacturing, can they pull rare earth metals out of the old equipment that’s retired or can they reuse spare parts?

Marne Martin: All these sort of things aren’t new things but they’re now starting to get more attention. And frankly, they’re more needed alongside what are becoming digital business models. That’s why I said before that, there’s always the traditional areas that we’re trying to improve, make more profitable, more streamlined, better customer experience but then there’s also, the emerging technology, the emerging business models and how businesses reconcile this in the way that has the least amount of friction is the most rapidly scalable. These are the businesses that we’ll be betting on in the future, right? If you think about the next 100 or 50 years or whatever, the businesses that one, stay in business and two, rise to the top either as public or private companies will be the ones that figure this out and the ones that don’t, will be the ones that lag behind.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, okay. We’re going to run out of time but to close us out, why don’t you both share, it could be a challenge you feel like we didn’t get to that you want to discuss, it can be your best piece of advice to those listening related to this journey. Hilbrand, do you want to go first?

Hilbrand Rustema: Yeah, it’s a big question. I would start with what I said at the very beginning, whenever a company considers A, what we call a service transformation, make sure that you really understand what your customers need, start with that. Think of this as a very big transformational change. Think about, how your culture, your supporting organizational structure, your skills, what needs to change there, have a good understanding of it. Manage it as let’s say, a transformation. It’s not just a project let’s say. The third thing is, you figure out your business model before you do the big investments. Meaning, have a good value proposition, knowing how to sell it and figuring out how to deliver it in a scalable way because that’s the only way you’re going to make some money. Then in terms of implementation, yeah, start small, pilot, do this until the moment that your customers that you’re piloting with, that they tell you, now you got it right. And then you start scaling it up, yeah? I think these are probably my most important tips let’s say.

Sarah Nicastro: All right, sounds good. And Marne?

Marne Martin: Hilbrand’s tips are absolutely accurate. I would just say that, with understanding the benefit and what you’re trying to achieve obviously is number one because, we’ve seen businesses spend many millions of dollars, tens, maybe even $100 million dollars and not get the benefits or the transformation that they were looking from either a change management initiative with or without technology investment. So definitely having that crystal focus on, what you want your business to look like on the other side and what you want your relationship to be with either the customers you have or the customers you want to have related to your Tam has to be that north star, that guiding light, et cetera. I would also add that I feel sometimes I already made the point about entrepreneurship but I feel sometimes that businesses need to be a little bit more courageous. I’m not arguing against anything that Hilbrand said but, I also see businesses that are so risk adverse that they one, don’t know how to properly assess whether a POC is scalable or was successful or not and then two, sometimes they don’t take the opportunity fast enough, right?

Marne Martin: And a lot of that is, say you’re a complex global manufacturer in 100 countries. Okay, so you had a successful pilot in maybe your smallest market, your biggest market, something in between but how do you then capitalize on the opportunity to go faster and be more courageous while meeting the business challenges you have day-to-day? That can be a whole discussion and obviously there’s a lot of business consulting and management consulting and a lot of stuff that goes into that but, I would just add again, thinking about what the business and customer relationship you want to have on the other side and then making sure that you have enough courage and entrepreneurship in a business if you really do want to change business on the other side because if you just want to incrementally enhance your existing business, that’s certainly possible and certainly there’s ROI in that too. But if you really want a different business or an evolved business on the other side, that takes a certain amount of entrepreneurship and courage.

Sarah Nicastro: Yeah, that’s a really good point. It makes me think, I’m just referencing related content. If people want to go check it out, we did a podcast with a gentleman named Dan McClure last year and it was really digging into how people often mistake incremental improvement for innovation. People convince themselves that they want to innovate but then they default to incremental improvement because it’s what’s comfortable, it’s what’s safe and it digs into that conversation which is a really good one. Okay. Well, thank you both for being here. Like I said, I’ll make sure that we link the full report in the show notes so that everyone can go check that out but appreciate you coming and spending some time with me.

Marne Martin: It was great, Sarah, and thank you Hilbrand as well. I really appreciate. It was fun to do this with you.

Hilbrand Rustema: You’re welcome, thank you.

Marne Martin: Bye Sarah.

Sarah Nicastro: Bye-bye. We’ll link the full report. You can also find more by visiting us at futureoffieldservice.com. We’re also on LinkedIn as well as Twitter @thefutureofFF. The future of field service podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at ifs.com. As always, thank you for listening.