Karin Hamel, Vice President of Services for US Digital Buildings at Schneider Electric, joins Sarah to share five areas she’s focused on when it comes to creating the frontline workforce of the future.
Sarah Nicastro: Welcome to the Future of Field Service Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Nicastro. Today we are going to be talking about five areas of focus when you are thinking about creating the frontline workforce of the future. I'm excited to be joined today by Karin Hamel, who is the Vice President of Services for US Digital Buildings at Schneider Electric. Karin, welcome to the Future of Field Service Podcast.
Karin Hamel: Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Sarah Nicastro: Yes, thank you. So Karin and I were fortunate enough to catch up in-person in September in Chicago at the Service Council Symposium. She had a few sessions there that were wonderful, talking about some of her areas of focus at Schneider. We had a good chat, and came up with some things that we wanted to discuss with you all today on the podcast. So before we dig into the nitty gritty, Karin, why don't you tell our listeners a bit about yourself.
Karin Hamel: Sure. So Karin Hamel, and I'm coming to you live from Chicago land. Although I am not originally from here, I'm originally from the east coast, from Rhode Island. That's where I started my career back in the day with American Power Conversion. That's how I got into this sort of IT tech field, energy management. Along the way, APC was acquired by Schneider Electric. I took a little time off in between, but I've been with Schneider for the past 11 years. I have four children. To be honest, thinking about my career path, what gives me the most energy and passion, it is truly all around services. So I'm really glad to be able to be here talking with you about that.
Sarah Nicastro: Awesome. So you all know that I'm a mom of two, and I'm very passionate about power to the working mama, and shutting down any sort of narrative that says we can't do all of the things. So I admire the fact that you are equally passionate ab out your children, and being a mom, and also your career, and services, and all of the great work that you do at Schneider. So I love that about you. Cool. Okay. So we talked a lot on future of field service, and you and I at the event, about how the role of the frontline worker is changing.
Sarah Nicastro: So as service organizations innovate, and advance their offerings, and move toward this idea of delivering outcomes as technology continues to mature and become more sophisticated, the characteristics that you all are looking for in a frontline worker are different than they were two years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, right? They're sort of continually evolving. So there are a number of things that you and Schneider are doing to sort of take action and respond to these changes.
Sarah Nicastro: So that's what we're going to talk about here today. We're going to talk about five key areas, and the first is shifting the perception of the frontline worker. So can we talk a little bit, Karin, about how would you describe the historical perception of what that role is? How that perception needs to change to reflect really what the role has evolved to be and is continuing to evolve to be?
Karin Hamel: Yeah. Well, I think the historical perception, and certainly the one that I have in my head when you asked that question is your typical Maytag repairman. The man that comes up with the toolbox, and the uniform, and comes into your home or your place of business, and he's there to use the tools out of his toolbox to fix whatever has recently broken.
Karin Hamel: That is not necessarily enough anymore, because now we know what the advancements have happened with technology, with data, analytics, and those types of insights. We can actually arm those technicians with these digital tools. Their toolbox is now more of a virtual toolbox in many ways. So if you think about the skillsets required today to really serve our customers the best that we can, they've enhanced. We have to really think about, how do we train up and skill those legacy workers to be able to be more well-rounded, but as well as look for those traits upon hiring and entry into the workforce?
Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I was doing a presentation a couple of weeks ago, also in Chicago, different event, but another Chicago trip. It was talking about some of the things that are necessary in today's landscape when it comes to modernizing our recruiting and hiring practices, right? Because as the workforce evolves, companies can't expect to continue hiring the same way that they were five years ago. It's just not realistic, right? I was co-presenting with one of my colleagues. When he sent me the initial draft of the slide deck, the title slide was a picture of two really dirty hands. I was like, "We can't use this. I'm not saying that's never a part of the job. But I'm saying, it's reinforcing a perception that is quite outdated."
Sarah Nicastro: It's very interesting how in many ways the role of the frontline is shifting from that very hands-on, mechanical, dirty work type job to more of a knowledge worker and a relationship builder. There is a lot of things that come along with that change that would be a podcast for another day. But you're absolutely right that the perception many have in their minds is not truly representative of the work that's being accomplished today, and how that will continue to change. So from a company's perspective, I think that's super important, because if we continue to have that outdated perception, then are we treating our employees in those roles the way that the type of people with the skillsets we want in those roles want to be treated?
Sarah Nicastro: I think it's also important from kind of an external perspective that we work as an industry at large to modernize that perception, because that's part of the key to being able to get folks interested in these types of jobs, right? One of the things that we talked about briefly at the event, Karin, was I love that you said this. You said, "So salespeople have things like president's club. Why aren't service workers rewarded in the same way?" Right? So tell me a little bit more about your thought process there.
Karin Hamel: Well, no one needs to be like the redheaded stepchild. I feel like we've done that to our field service personnel largely, as a trend in the past. We've overlooked them or taken them for granted. They are doing the dirty work, oftentimes. While we can enable them with technology, at the end of the day there are still plenty of dirty job sites that they have to go and help us resolve. So I do think that we have an opportunity to highlight the work that they've done, and celebrate the hard work that really, a salesperson, they do an amazing job of securing an order, right? Securing that relationship upfront with the customer, giving us work to perform.
Karin Hamel: But at the end of the day, that salesperson is selling the value that that technician is going to deliver. We are nothing without that side of the equation. So it's really important that we wrap our arms around the technicians, empower them, celebrate them, recognize what they're doing. When we see that internally, it catches on. Right? Then we create this movement across the organization, and especially when it's peer-to-peer recognition, and the salespeople recognizing the technicians, we create a much better culture where we work. That's a place we want to stay, too. It's a place people want to be hired into.
Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. So sure, there is this ongoing conversation about the fact that in many industries, post-sale, the frontline technicians are the only person that interacts with the customer face-to-face, right? So there is a lot of responsibility of not just getting the job done, but reinforcing the company brand, and building and nurturing those relationships, and looking for different opportunities to serve customers, and weighing in on innovation, and all sorts of different things. So I agree 100%.
Karin Hamel: Yeah, I think about that technician is walking into that customer's site, and there are different sites every day of the week. They're wearing the company logo, is wearing Schneider Electric. They are bringing a piece of our company to that customer, physically, representing, every day, it's so important that we support those people.
Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. For sure. Okay. So the second key area is around increasing diversity. So we're talking about all sorts of diversity here, differences in thought, opinion, ideas that are so valuable for companies that are really looking to evolve and innovate. So it's important, but you and I both sat back at the event in Chicago, and kind of said, "Hmm, there is still not many women here." There is even fewer people of color, right? So we really haven't ... We've made progress, but we're not anywhere near where we need to be in terms of being a diverse space. How is Schneider Electric working to change that?
Karin Hamel: Yeah. I'm very proud of the programs that Schneider has been driving over the past few years regarding diversity, equity, and inclusion. I think we do a really good job internally with our core values being, driving the right types of behavior that we want to see with our people, and making sure it's a safe, inclusive environment for everyone to perform at their best. When I think about the work that remains to be done, it will be all about enticing that talent, that diverse talent to come into Schneider Electric. If we think about the makeup and look and feel of that Maytag repairman persona, and the workforce that we've had historically, think about the why. Why has it traditionally been white males of a certain age, certain decade that they were born in, perhaps?
Karin Hamel: Well, it's really, the excuse that I've heard or the reason I do think that this is substantiated is we didn't have STEM programs for women or minorities. It was really, these electrical engineering programs, we traditionally didn't have that persona enrolled in those programs. But today, we do. We know that. I remember, being a mom of a 15 year old, seeing STEM as part of the curriculum at her school. I was like, what is STEM? I didn't, I had not been familiar with that term growing up. Now, we have, we can't ignore it, and we should be embracing it and leveraging it. So what we're doing is trying to find opportunities to create more entry level roles to get that talent in as soon as possible. Having programs like university recruit programs, apprenticeship programs, great onboarding and training to attract and retain that talent. So that's a big focus right now for us.
Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. So it's interesting, it goes hand-in-hand with the first point around perception, right? Because to get younger folks more interested in these roles, we need to do a better job, like I said, of sort of ... I don't want to say making field service sexy. It can only be so sexy, I guess. But there are, I think, aspects of the job that are innately appealing. Then there is also a lot of things companies are doing and can do to make sure that you're thinking about what the younger generation wants out of its career, and finding ways to get creative and provide some of those things. There is this need to make sure you're communicating in a modern way what the opportunities are, why they're compelling, all of those things.
Sarah Nicastro: But to your point, it's also around not just looking to hire white, male technicians that have 15 years of experience, right? So how do you look for those ways, to your point, of bringing talent in sooner, where they're not already set on a specific path. But maybe they're open to different ideas and opportunities. Really, I call it farming some of that talent, right? But creating programs where you can give really, really skilled and good fit folks the opportunity to come to Schneider and progress in a variety of different ways, versus just looking for the people that have already done that elsewhere. I think that's a really important point. Certainly, a way to focus not only on the issue of the talent gap, but specifically on increasing diversity in the talent that you're bringing in.
Karin Hamel: Yeah.
Sarah Nicastro: I think that's a super important way.
Karin Hamel: By no means do I ever want to ostracize the white, male audience, right? We need them. They're important. It's not anyone's fault. It is the situation that we're in. What can we do, because we know, now, that a more diverse collective group of people will be more highly engaged, and ultimately provide a better experience for our customers and all the other employees that they work with. So I think it's important to say that. We want everyone.
Sarah Nicastro: Yeah.
Karin Hamel: There is a place for everyone.
Sarah Nicastro: That's exactly right. It's not about reducing or eliminating that in any way. It's just about augmenting it, and adding to it, and making sure that anyone and everyone that has the desire to explore these type of career opportunities is made aware of them, and given the chance to explore those skills. So you're absolutely right. I don't mean it that way either. I've been in this space for 15 years, and I have relationships with so many people that fit that characteristic, and they're fantastic people. So many of them share the desire to bring the industry to its next iteration. So it's all a collaborative process. I think that everyone recognizes that it's important for us to bring all sorts of different folks into the mix. That's how we all are going to get better. Cool.
Sarah Nicastro: All right, so the third key that I want to talk about is moving from communication to collaboration. Okay? So when we think about the frontline worker, I think we've made strides here, but we've come from a place where we have folks that are happy to show up for work, punch a clock, see what the directive is, and oftentimes are just very happy to carry out the duties that they've been given, and do their work, provide the service to the customers, and be happy with that. I think what companies have realized is that with the immense amount of change that's underway, due to a variety of reasons, the idea of communication with the frontline becomes more important, because we need to not just direct, but bring them into some of the goings on of the organization.
Sarah Nicastro: But I think the point here is to take that a step further, which is the frontline actually holds a wealth of knowledge, and opinions, and insights that can really drive that change. So rather than just communicating, how do we collaborate? Right? So I know with some of the work that you've been doing on Schneider's strategy, you all have done a very good job of really, truly valuing the frontline input, and making sure that you're getting that. Thinking about some of the ways that you are communicating and collaborating, to make sure that you are really being impactful and effective. So can you talk a little bit about that?
Karin Hamel: Yeah. So I have a background in marketing and internal communications. I started in field service, I was responsible for driving communication programs for our frontline. It was eye opening to me, and extremely challenging to try to figure out, okay, how do I effectively do that? Because these are not people that are sitting behind a computer all day. It really was down to the working environment, and identifying that persona, white collar versus blue collar, and what does that look and feel like in the day-to-day?
Karin Hamel: So first and foremost, understanding how someone that's a service field worker, what their day looks like. A lot of windshields time, up in the morning, long drives, going to a different site every single day. Oftentimes, not using their laptop, using their mobile device instead. Not tethered to their Microsoft Outlook email inbox. Receive most of their information from their directing manager or supervisor. So with all of that said and done, your traditional newsletter that you do for communications is not going to cut it. That will not be read.
Karin Hamel: I have tried many things throughout the years, tried things like actually snail mailing a hard copy newsletter, we've done podcasts, we've done focus groups. But something that we've done very recently that I'm very excited about is we started doing strategy visualization. What does that really mean? Well, we started working with a vendor called The Nour Group. They helped us go through the whole strategy slide deck, that 40 page slide deck that we all have sitting in a desk drawer somewhere, on a thumb drive. Taking that, and boiling it down to one page, that's a very visual, graphic document, that really spells everything out, walks the reader or whoever is your audience through the whole strategy, and takes away that corporate speak. It really gives you that talk directly to the reader, your technician in this case, the real person, cut the MBA talk. That was something that I found I really needed some help with. It was nice to have someone point that out to me.
Karin Hamel: So using this visualization, and then printing it out on mousepad, using it as a backdrop for something else. Having it in many different places, so that it's really repeatable, the drum beat continuously throughout the year. It's something, like a war cry. Everyone can rally around this visualization and identify themselves there. I know what the things that I'm going to do in my day-to-day when I'm out onsite with customers. They're going to ultimately drive our ambitions for the year. So that's something that I will definitely be deploying for the unforeseeable future. I think I've cracked the code here, with all these other things I've tried.
Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. So just a couple of comments I want to make on this, because this was one of the sessions at the Service Council event. You and the Nour Group did this sort of live, right? So you showed how you took this huge PowerPoint, and made it into this one visual that everyone can refer back to. The reality is not everyone in the organization is going to look through a 40 slide PowerPoint. I mean, who would want to?
Sarah Nicastro: So again, I think a lot of the impactful change that companies are making today, and this is a really good example, is just breaking out of habits. Right? So you create strategy, you put it into the corporate deck, you put it on the drive, you send out an email and say, "Everyone, make sure you look at this. Let us know if you have questions." Whatever. Right? It's not bad. It's just the way it's been done. But these are the opportunities to really reflect and say, "Hmm. So far technicians are spending X amount of hours in their vehicle each day. If they're only accessing their laptop maybe, I don't know, two to three times a week, is this a realistic expectation? If not, what opportunity are we missing to communicate the information in this deck to them in a more relatable way?"
Sarah Nicastro: So I'm just saying that for all of you listening that weren't there to see this, it was really powerful to see how the key points of the overall strategy were put into this one page visual. I think that the idea of eliminating corporate speak, super important. The idea of putting in the context of why does this matter to me, whomever you're communicating it to, is super important. How do I fit into this strategy is super important. The idea of it being repeatable, and seen in different places, so that there is an opportunity to catch it, and there is an opportunity to catch it over and over again. The other big point, to me, that this drove home, seeing it on a big screen, is you mentioned that oftentimes the frontline is getting the strategy message from their direct supervisor, right?
Sarah Nicastro: One of the things we've seen challenges with in, I'm not saying Schneider at all, but in different businesses throughout the years I've been doing interviews is you have a really good vision, mission, strategy, at the top, and it doesn't quite get to the frontline. It's kind of like, what's the old telephone game, where it just gets lost in translation. Sometimes, unfortunately, and this is another area that companies need to really understand, why does this happen?
Sarah Nicastro: But sometimes it's that level above, that middle management level that's managing the frontline that is the most disconnected, and maybe frustrated. So they don't share the passion of the people that created this strategy in communicating it. So what I liked about this visual is it's a very important reference point to make sure that everyone in the organization sees the same thing, and is on the same page. So you're not relying on that manager to communicate some synopsis of a 40 page PowerPoint. You're putting it out there in a way that everyone sees the same thing. So you minimize the risk of that breakdown in communication, which I also think is super important.
Karin Hamel: Yeah. So two things to follow up on that. So one, David Nour, he had the funniest statement. He was like, "What's the main radio station everyone is listening to? WIIFM, what's in it for me?" You get my point. So with these documents, how do you get through to the frontline? Show them what's in it for them. So if they can identify their contributions to the end goal in this visualization, and with what you're communicating. Then the other is I think what worked for us, and I mentioned it early on, was recognition. So we built up a recognition program around this strategy visualization doc and our Hero program. So if I'm a technician, and I can identify how I can contribute to our overall business ambitions by this kind of map, this resonates. Well, every time I do contribute or am delivering on one of those key outcomes, someone is going to recognize that behavior.
Karin Hamel: That's where we put in this peer-to-peer nomination. Anyone can go and say, "I'm going to catch you at doing something great. I'm going to encapsulate that in the form of a recognition." We have a woman that runs this program for us, and we have great internal communication. So people might not want to open up an email, or read some lengthy newsletter. But when they see their name in lights, they're certainly going to read that, or when they recognize a peer for doing something great. "Hey, he or she just got those accolades. I want to read that." So if we kind of keep it all connected, and this runs throughout the whole year, that has been a great accelerant to kind of create that movement in the culture that we want.
Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. For sure. We're going to talk a little bit more about that in a moment. Before we do, I want to talk about the fourth area, which is shifting the focus from purely effectiveness to empowerment with the frontline. So this is a huge thing. When I started covering this space, every single conversation was around how do we drive productivity? How do we make technicians more effective? How do we get to one more visit? How do we drive, drive, drive, cut, cut, cut, right? Obviously, every organization needs to maximize utilization, and make sure that technicians are effective, and productive. So that's not to take away from that.
Sarah Nicastro: But I think this idea of empowerment is very important, because we've better recognized the value of the frontline worker and all of the areas of the business that they can impact. It's not just about making sure they're effective. But it's really digging into what do they need from the company to be not just effective, but empowered, right? To have all of the insights they need on the job. To be able to make good decisions in real time. All of those things. As well as one of the things we talked about earlier, which is the idea of career development. Right? Giving people paths within the business to expand and continue their journey instead of looking elsewhere. So can you talk a little bit about the work that Schneider has done related to really empowering the frontline worker, to make sure that they have everything they need to be successful?
Karin Hamel: Yeah. Well, I think it starts with getting their feedback. So we have a survey that we do, a company-wide survey once a year. We say everyone is over surveyed these years. So the promise is once a year, if there was one survey that you had to take, take this one, because we want to hear your voice. As a result of getting that feedback, we put action plans in place to say, "What are the key drivers that are really influencing our employee's day? Are they happy?" Because happy people make happy customer. We really want to make sure they feel happy to show up to work every day. So first and foremost is listening to them. Gathering their feedback, and then creating those meaningful action plans that are going to enhance their day, their life at work. Sometimes, it's a matter of the right tooling and outfitting from a physical standpoint. Sometimes it's, we know that people say they don't want to do paperwork.
Karin Hamel: So how can we create efficiencies in terms of process or systems that we can free up their time, and give them their energy back to go and face that customer, and deliver an outstanding service experience? Other times, and you mentioned it, is, yeah, career path. Let's make sure that they see, if they have ambitions to go do something else, make sure that they feel like they can voice that to their manager, first of all, and show them a path. Then I think the last is mentorship. So creating a space for them to be able to talk about other things with someone maybe more senior than them, and matching them up, like a buddy system.
Karin Hamel: We have amazing internal training programs at Schneider, so if you decide that you'd like to go practice a different trade, or get into leadership, all the tools are at your disposal. So let's make sure we give them time in their day, in their week, to go invest that back. So this time of year, people are typically figuring out their utilization targets for next year. So if you're in control of that, think about how you might add a few hours back into their lives to give them time for that development.
Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. I think it's this recognition that the recognition of the frontline as talent, not just for their contribution. Right? So the historical view is just output, output, output. Right? But we've started to realize, what are we putting in to sustain that output? And expand that output, as the role changes, what more do our workers need from us to be able to expand, evolve in their own careers, and to your point, be happy? It's not just about what all can we get out of them. Then you're going to have a retention problem. So it's really also about what do they need? Even the visualization thing. There is this idea, I think, tied to empowerment is feeling invested in the story, and the company's mission. So not just throwing that out there and hoping they find it. But making sure it resonates, and making sure they feel a part of the whole Schneider story.
Karin Hamel: Right.
Sarah Nicastro: Okay. So the final area I want to come back to is around recognition. So you touched on the Hero program and what you're doing there. Again, I want to emphasize that as the workforce changes, the end all and be all is not just financial reward. Obviously, employees want to be fairly paid, and everyone should be fairly paid. But I think the point here is that these workers lack historically in being acknowledged and recognized for the important contributions they make. So again, just talk a little bit more about, so the Hero program. You mentioned it's a peer-to-peer nomination. This is, I think, a really important step toward making sure that these folks feel seen and valued for the hard work that they're doing.
Karin Hamel: Yeah. I mean, ultimately, so for me, leading services for the business unit. I'm responsible for setting the ultimate direction and the strategy, and then everything backing up into, okay, well, what do we need to do today to get there? What does the current situation look like? So I ask myself, what are the outcomes that I want to deliver? Then you back your way into, well, what are the behaviors and actions that I need the people to drive to create those outcomes? So then if we can map out those types of behaviors and actions for every persona in the organization, and specifically for field services here, that's how we started and arrived at that strategy visualization document. So that every technician could look at that and identify themselves, and say, "All right, this is clear. Simple roadmap. I need to do X, Y, and Z to plug into the overall direction and ambition of the group. Okay."
Karin Hamel: So we started, created a survey link. We've got some cash bonuses in place for those that are being strategically recognized. In the past, we have done president's club trip for these people. So picking one name at the end of the year for various reasons, and sending them on that sales president's club trip. That was very well received, as you might imagine. Another cool thing that came out of this was one of our monthly spotlight heroes, he was a technician out of Philadelphia, he felt so glad that he had been seen, and once we could tap into him, he had so many great ideas for how to improve the culture and the workforce.
Karin Hamel: He actually volunteered, he said, "Can we do a podcast?" So of course, let's try it. So great idea. If that's what you think is going to resonate with these folks. So giving them something. He's like, "There is only so many radio stations and satellite radio I can listen to. Let's give us something else, and let's talk shop on this podcast." So we've been trying that out lately. But it was nice to see, you know what? If we hadn't had this recognition program in place, I don't think we would have had the vehicle to get that idea out of Gary in Philadelphia. So you never know what can spin off from these types of programs.
Sarah Nicastro: Yeah. It's such a good point. Like I said, you want to create an environment where he is not just sitting on that thought, or that idea, or that feedback. You want him to feel engaged and valued so that he'll speak up. Right? You also want to create a space where it's okay if every idea isn't the best idea. But how do you get more dialogue around those things? Because that's how you're going to find the really cool, innovative things. It's funny, when you were talking about windshield time, the first thing I thought was podcast, because it just ... It is a really good use of that vehicle time for them to have an opportunity, whatever, that could take a ton of different paths, right? So I think it's really cool that you're doing that. Good job, Gary, for coming up with the idea. That's awesome.
Sarah Nicastro: Okay, so Karin, in summary, is there any other insights, opinions, comments you have on this topic and how the industry needs to rise up to meet the needs of the workforce of the future?
Karin Hamel: So I think for me, it's three points. One is invest in technology that is going to catapult you into the modern day experience that customers expect. So when you get those ... I'm speaking firsthand. When you get those emails from vendors that say, "Hey, notice you downloaded a white paper. Can I get some of your time? Hey, I saw you were speaking at this event, can I do a demo with you?" If you're like me, you're bombarded with those type of things, and you usually delete them. Take the time to entertain one here or there, and listen to what the industry is doing. Give it some attention. It will pay off.
Karin Hamel: Number two, invest in programs for your people. So what can you do? Listen to their feedback, and what can you do to free up their time, create a better workplace for them? Number three is just keep it real. Stay close to the frontline. Find opportunities to get out in the field, go onsite with your technicians, see the day-to-day firsthand, because that's really going to keep you honest and connected. You remember that corporate speak, MBA speak versus real talk? Never lose sight of just keeping it real.
Sarah Nicastro: That's a really good point, Karin. I think the investment of leadership's time in hands-on, face-to-face time with the frontline, right? I mean, I think that is an investment that pays dividends, both in being able to have an opportunity to hear some of their thoughts and ideas firsthand. But also, what it says to them, and shows them about how you value their contribution, right? It's easy to sit back behind your laptop and, "Oh, good job." It's a totally different thing to go sit in the truck all day, visit customers with them, and make them feel that you're present, you see them, you value them. I think that's a very, very, very good point. So good.
Sarah Nicastro: Well, thank you so much for coming on and sharing today. I'm excited to stay tuned on the Hero program, and all of the other things that you all are doing. I believe, for those listening, I believe that the service council sessions are available on demand. So if you have an opportunity to go back to that archive and take a look at the session that Karin and David Nour did on strategy visualization, it's a really, really good session. So I highly recommend you do that. I appreciate your time today, Karin.
Karin Hamel: Yeah. Thanks, Sarah. It was my pleasure.
Sarah Nicastro: Yes. Thank you. All right, you can find more by visiting us at futureoffieldservice.com. You can also find us on LinkedIn as well as Twitter @thefutureofFS. The Future of Field Service Podcast is published in partnership with IFS. You can learn more at IFS.com. As always, thank you for listening.